Jason Hartman is joined by investment counselor, Steve, in this episode as they discuss current events from Newser and Zero Hedge. The talk of a real estate bubble is increasing in volume; however, that issue must be considered in many component parts to be understood, our take… we have a long way to go unless interest rates increase rather dramatically. The Zero Hedge articles include:
• Big Investors Quietly Slip Out The Back Door On Housing As “Stupid Money” Jumps In
• The last to the party: Investors and flippers competing for small amount of inventory.
Next, Jason interviews the Austin, Texas Local Market Specialist (LMS) as they look at investor trends both in and out of the greater Austin MSA. More at: https://www.jasonhartman.com/properties/
Female Voice: Welcome to Creating Wealth with Jason Hartman. During this program Jason is going to tell you some really exciting things that you probably haven’t thought of before and a new slant on investing fresh new approaches to America’s best investment that will enable you to create more wealth and happiness then you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multi-millionaire who not only talks the talk but walks the walk.
He’s been a successful investor for twenty years and currently owns properties in eleven states and seventeen cities. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to financial freedom. You really can do it. And now, here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.
Jason Hartman: Welcome to the Creating Wealth Show. This is your host Jason Hartman. This is episode number 319 and today we are going to talk about the Austin property market because we didn’t get a chance to do it last time. We have got some pretty good properties there, amazingly, in prices that work and properties that work and in a market like Austin, that is no easy deal. It’s — it’s a tall order, hard — hard to do. So, I’m really glad to say that we’re bringing this market back online. We’ve done much, much business there. I own a property there as well and have owned it for oh, probably seven — eight years and just — it’s obviously a great city. So, we’re going to talk about that.
We’ve got our local market specialist coming up later in today’s episode, number 319, but before that I’ve got Steve here with me to do the intro portion and we’ve got to talk about a — a few things here, the first of which is toilet paper. Steve, how are you doing?
Steve: Well, I’m — I’m doing just fine. I’m wondering about you, though. All the ASU co-eds are probably gone so what are you spending all your time doing now?
Jason Hartman: Yeah, you know it’s getting warmer here in Arizona and this is the time of year when a lot of people skip town. It’s not exac — not exactly great. It’s not too terribly hot yet, but boy I tell you, it’s — it’s heating up. So I am looking forward to escaping myself with — with some trips this summer that have yet to be planned, so working on that. But hey, you didn’t take my toilet paper lead here and — and here’s what this is about? You know, what does this have to do with — with income property investing? Well, it doesn’t have to do with that directly, but it does have a lot to do with economics. And I bring this up. This was an article I saw in Newsier about Venezuela’s shopping list including thirty nine million rolls of toilet paper. And basically what’s happened here is the country is experiencing a toilet paper shortage. Look at what happens in centrally planned economies and when you institute price controls it’s always a disaster, isn’t it?
Steve: So the — the minister of toilet paper got it wrong?
Jason Hartman: Yeah. They — they definitely did. And you know what I was amazed to learn in reading this article, I did not know this before, that Venezuela, here you’re — you got a centrally planned dictatorial economy. Their inflation rate is the highest in Latin America at twenty percent, twenty five percent annually. Can you imagine Steve, if you were able to exist in a free market and own real estate, the way people can here, and get debt against that income property and have a twenty five percent inflation rate, that means your loan balance essentially goes to nearly zero in about five years. Not exactly, because as you’re debasing the mortgage by twenty five percent, of course you keep debasing it in a compounded fashion and it’s less to debase every year.
So, the first year if you have one million dollars in mortgage balances with the inflation induced debt destruction, then inflation essentially pays off for you two hundred a whopping quarter million dollars or two hundred fifty thousand dollars the first year. And then the year after, you have seven hundred fifty thousand left over and you’re only taking twenty five percent off of that amount and so on and so on and so on. So, if I take out my little old — old fashioned trustee HP 12c computer and I take seventy five percent of seven hundred fifty thousand — whoops, did that wrong – seven five o – one, two three enter — I’ll just take twenty five percent of that amount, which is one hundred eighty seven thousand five hundred dollars. So, the amount that you get in inflation induced debt destruction is less every year, but let’s assume, which is you know a fair assumption, that the commodities, the real estate, the income property will keep pace with inflation. So, that’s going “up” at twenty five percent annually while the mortgage is being debased or paid off, if you will, at a rate of twenty five percent annually. That’s just phenomenal, and I say this could easily come to the United States of America. And wow, what an opportunity that would be. What can we learn from their toilet paper problem?
Well, that’s one of them. So, law makers just voted — can you believe Steve, they have to vote for this in Venezuela, to import thirty nine million rolls of toilet paper as part — as a seventy nine million dollar measure that would also include toothpaste and soap, and — and the reason for the shortage is somewhat in dispute, they say. President Nicholas Maduro took over for Obama’s buddy Hugo Chavez, blames a conspiracy by rich people and his political components, while other analysis’s site price controls, which have lead people to snap up under costed goods.
And you know it just goes to show you, that the government can never plan as well as the free market could. This self-correcting free market place is the best planner of price distributions of — of all of them.
Steve: Yeah, and Hugo’s puppet is — is delusional. I mean, can you imagine these guys together in a cigar smoke filled room, plotting about how they’re going to bring — bring him down, and they’re going to do it through cutting off the toilet paper supply.
Jason Hartman: Right. You know and — and — and the other thing he says, which sounds very much like our own President, Mr. Obama here, is — is — he — he blames — he says it’s a conspiracy of the rich people. You know it just harkens back to so many statements Obama has made which without his tele-prompters that he always has handy, when he’s talking off the cuff, you get a little more insight on how the guy really thinks, and you look back to Hillary Clinton, kind of same story many years ago when she blamed Kenneth Star and — and the Monica Lewinsky scandal on the — the vast right wing conspiracy. I mean this is just ridiculousness.
Steve: Yeah, well it’s anybody’s fault but theirs, that’s how a central planner who operates on faulty economic principles is — is going to have to think. But I — I think you and I ought to jump on a plane down to Caracas and see if we can mortgage ourselves a Venezuelan toilet paper factory.
Jason Hartman: Not a bad idea, but they’ve probably nationalized them and thereby made them massive inefficient before they put them all out of business.
Steve: So you need the — you need that middle ground, the quasi capitalist United States where we’ll have a lot of inflation but probably won’t be nationalized. That’s how you’re going to best profit from inflation.
Jason Hartman: That’s for sure, that’s for sure. I love U.S. real estate and you know how I feel about that. Well hey, on a more serious note, let’s talk about some rumblings that I’m hearing in the market place, but they are minor rumblings, but I am starting to hear them, and you posted in our internal site, which by the way we’re — let me tell you something, members, our new members section at Jasonhartman.com is up and running and it’s not nearly as good as I want it to be yet, but one of the things that we’re going to start doing is posting a lot of the internal stuff. You listeners are constantly asking, what are we reading? What newsletters are we reading? What articles are we reading? What books are we reading? And we’re going to be posting a lot of this stuff inside the member’s portal at Jasonhartman.com.
So, if you’re not a member, this membership site is going to be really, really good. That is one of my big goals this year and over the coming years to really, really increase the value to our members for our extremely low cost membership. So, we’re going to start getting all these articles in there in full. We only have time on the show to talk about a few of them, but we’re reading and talking internally about many, many more of them, I mean posting several a day that we think are very, very insightful.
But, look at this one from zero hedge, Steve. And I — I kind of hear some minor rumblings about this, about oh the bubble is already blown up, the music is about to stop, this type of thinking, and personally I disagree but talk to us about that.
Steve: Well, it has primarily to do with the big institutional investors and I saw this. It’s — it’s getting a little bit more popular to talk about it. I knew a little bit nerdy and was watching Bernanke’s speech to congress on Friday.
Jason Hartman: Well Steve —
Steve: And —
Jason Hartman: — whoa, whoa, whoa —
Steve: — and —
Jason Hartman: — hey — hey Steve, hang on, hang on.
Steve: What?
Jason Hartman: You’re very nerdy. You’re not going to get away with this little bit nerdy thing, but go ahead.
Steve: Fair enough, fair enough. So, Bernanke he’s doing his typical schpiel up there and you know it was kind of alluding to the fact that they might stop purchasing all these mortgage backed securities and bonds soon, but it was funny, a congresswoman from the Socialist Republic of California started going on a tie raid to Bernanke. I didn’t feel sorry for him. I was tempted, but I — I ultimately didn’t.
Jason Hartman: Is this Maxine Waters, you’re talking about?
Steve: No, I can’t remember.
Jason Hartman: She’s a nut job. Oh, My God.
Steve: Yeah, she’s crazy, she’s crazy, but I was trying to record it, I was scrambling and all I did was fumble all over myself. So — but she was talking about how investors are scooping up all the properties, writing prices up and most people can’t get mortgages, still and everybody’s going to be left out in the cold, and what are you going to do Chairman Bernanke to fix this?
Jason Hartman: You know, it sounds similar to Venezuela. Maybe they should institute price controls like they did on toilet paper and then everybody will have access to toilet paper and they should do the same thing with housing, right?
Steve: Yeah, they should just centrally plan all the housing, kind of like they do in the housing projects because those are great. I mean —
Jason Hartman: Those are sighting examples of —
Steve: Yeah.
Jason Hartman: — success, aren’t they?
Steve: They’re fantastic, yeah. So, we’re already getting the rumblings from the government of — you know, we need to get this, more mortgages going. It’s not happening yet. People think that this market is a lot more frothy than it really is. You and I talked about this a couple of episodes ago where Dr. Steve Sjuggerud said that pricing, when you adjust it for inflation is about 1980 levels. And that’s why investors are — are going so crazy now.
I — I just don’t see a ton of stupid money. There’s a couple of large institutions that are over paying and this is — you know when we get to the second of the ten commandments you know, embrace the fragmentation as you — as you like to say. And like you’ve been calling it, we – we’ve talked about this multiple times on the show. Many of these funds, these institutions and pension funds and real estate investment trusts are getting completely slaughtered because they got in too quickly and they weren’t able to manage the fragmentation.
There’s talk of some of these funds having a fifty percent occupancy right —
Jason Hartman: Unbelievable.
Steve: — on their — yeah, on their portfolio. So, I know of two that have already bailed out. Would have said, you know we can’t do this. And everybody on the — listening to the show here should — should note that it’s not because it doesn’t work, it’s because when you try to spend a billion dollars on single family properties in twelve months, you asked for it.
Jason Hartman: Yep exactly, exactly.
Steve: That’s why this is such a great venue for us.
Jason Hartman: Yes, it is.
Steve: Because we can manage it.
Jason Hartman: Right, right. So, the embrace the fragmentation concept just means that look, all the things that frustrate investors from time-to-time, I’ve got one property in Atlanta and I’ve got another property in Austin, and another one in Memphis and another one in St. Louis and all the managers, they work in a different way. Everything’s so different. Well, if you’re some giant hedge fund, you can’t deal with that. And you’re not used to dealing with that. And that’s why the opportunity is here for the small individual investors that want to own ten or thirty houses, or a couple of fifty unit apartment complexes.
The — the opportunity is there for us that want to do that and this is what keeps the big institutions out of our game. And the returns on our investments are so much better. In most cases they’re dramatically better than they are for big institutional investors. And you know Steve, I’ll just give you another example of that. I got a — I got a like a third email today and I — I deleted it. I — I wish I had it in front of me but I can kind of remember it, from a commercial real estate investment company — and this is a property that you know isn’t really quite as in the institutional category. There’s some play in what we consider institutional, but these little single family homes are definitely not for institutional investors and I — I predicted a long time ago that they would fail at — at — as — as — at being single family home and small property investors.
But this property that I mentioned a moment ago is a gas station and I think it’s a 711 gas station near the corner of — not near the corner of — near the boarder of California and Mexico. And it’s a large sized gas station and it’s — I — I believe it’s a 711 brand of gas stations. It’s got the convenience store and — and a big — a big filling station with it, pretty large capacity and it was like eight or ten million bucks. And the cap rate or capitalization rate on that property was only like five percent. I mean, I wouldn’t touch a deal like that.
It has a ten year lease left on it, so after ten years, who knows what you own, whereas ten years from now these single family homes — I mean there’s just going to be more and more demand for housing, in my opinion. Over the next — I think we’ve got about thirty seven years left on this population projection. The U.S. is going to increase in size by one hundred million people. I mean —
Steve: That’s crazy.
Jason Hartman: — every — every one of those people have — have one thing in common for sure. They need shelter and regardless of how the economy is, the overriding demand for housing is going to massively increase and the numbers on our properties are so much better. I mean our cap rates — probably our worst cap rates are around seven percent, and our best ones are about twelve percent. But I don’t even like cap rate or capitalization rate as a measure of performance because it doesn’t account for appreciation and it doesn’t account for the benefits of leverage and it doesn’t account for the benefits of inflation induced debt destruction, which is my own term to describe the way inflation essentially pays off one step further.
But just like you’re saying, I mean — so, this is not the smart money that’s necessarily leading the game, is it? This is the frustrated money that’s leading the game.
Steve: It’s frustrated, yeah it’s — because you know, interestingly — I’ll — I’ll say the name. The name of the fund that they’re reporting that’s leading the game is called Carrington. And I actually spoke to them — it was probably eighteen months ago, and they were just edging into the game and they had kind of a strategic advantage because they were a servicing company and they were foreclosing on a lot of properties and they decided, you know what, instead of just do what everybody does and put these on the market, lets convert them into rentals. So they — they’ve — they got comparatively good deals on all that stuff but when they got into the market wanting to pay, there are a couple of large funds buying properties right now, but they’re not jumping out. They’re just — they’re paying a lot of money but you — you saw me — you heard me say it, fifty percent occupancy rates, how long are they willing to put up with that?
Jason Hartman: These — these institutions are so lame in so many ways. I mean — and I hate to say that because we have institutional clients that are buying from us and we’ll be glad to help them and take their money, and —
Steve: They’re not listening to the podcast, they’re busy overpaying for profit.
Jason Hartman: But – well — they’re pretty — you’re probably right but we try to give them the best that we can. But here’s what I’m saying is so lame, because they always are innovating and whenever you hear Wall Street or big institutional investors doing “financial innovation”, run for the hills because you know you said one of them has a fifty percent occupancy, right? Well, that — we’ve talked about it on the show. One of the things they wanted to do — I mean listen, these are very bright people with very bright ideas. But the bright ideas help them not necessarily the investor in the fund. And so one of them is that they wanted to, and I think some of them have actually done this, secure ties rental income streams.
So they would have a portfolio and then they would sell as a security — like a — a stock essentially, the income from the rental stream that the properties generate. But again, because the market is so fragmented I don’t think they’re going to be very good managing those rental income streams at all. And I guess my point made. I’ve already been proven right, right?
Steve: Yeah, it may have been. You know it’s — two of them have made the exit already but I see two really large ones — actually three that still — still continuing. There’s a few smaller more nimble funds that are — they’re entering more cautiously and — and I think they’ll — they’ll do okay. Ultimately, this is — this is a fad because of the fragmentation, the really big money will not be here for a long time.
They will financially innovate something else in a year or eighteen months and they’ll go on to you know, move money around and make their fees with that and the – all of the pension holders, our CalPERS, for example will sit there getting their three percent yield while the money managers in Wall Street just are moving everything around, making billions of dollars in fees.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, yeah. It’s — it’s — it’s just crazy, it really is. Oh okay, so we — we talked about that. Talk about a property, if you would. Let’s look at — we’ve got two properties we want to talk to you about today before we get to our guest.
Steve: We do. Yeah, we do and I —
Jason Hartman: And — and bring one of them up, if you would.
Steve: Sure, sure. We’ve got one here in Memphis and I’ll do one here in Austin a bit because I know we have our local market specialist from Austin coming on, but you know, Memphis is one of those markets that if you are exclusively concerned about cash flow, this is a market where you would go.
I will also say you — you could look at Indianapolis, Birmingham, maybe Houston but those are — are stronger cash flow markets right now. And this one in Memphis is no exception.
Jason Hartman: You — you know what I got to — I got to stop you.
Steve: Yeah.
Jason Hartman: Having just done that tour — property tour we had in Memphis about what a month ago or so, I — I — I got to tell you, the — the other thing and I — I got this email from one of our clients who’s probably listening, what about Las Vegas? What about Las Vegas? And — and Steve, I — I forwarded part of that to you because I — I wanted to get you to weigh in on you know whether you had a local market specialist there lined up for us or anything, but folks when we pick markets, one of the things I have learned over many years of doing this is that it’s not just about the market, it’s about the team you have in that market and whether or not they can execute and whether or not we have a lot of leverage over them to make them want to execute. And I conspicuously noticed — you know I like to be very open on the show about the challenges we face in our business and the challenges our clients face from time-to-time. This is not perfect but it’s better than anything else.
And Steve, out of those cash flow markets, you conspicuously did not mention St. Louis.
Steve: You caught that, did you?
Jason Hartman: Yeah I caught that, yeah.
Steve: Oh, okay.
Jason Hartman: I caught that, and we like the St. Louis market but our vendor there is just totally overwhelmed. Now, what’s keeping things working in St. Louis is the fact that we have sent them so much business and we’ve done business with that same vendor in Dallas and we’ve considered doing business with that same vendor in one other city, as well.
And because of our large volume, we exert a lot of leverage over these providers, these vendors and this is something that other groups, they just can’t offer you as the client, what we have, and that’s that volume. And I use the Walmart example on this.
Walmart is a loved and hated company in — in America. They’re obviously incredibly successful and you hear stories about the way these vendors go to Arkansas and they pitched to Walmart, and it is like this total assembly line, and they come out of there beaten up like, oh my God, to do business with Walmart, we got to give our stuff away and you know have really thin margins and provide really great products.
And the CEO of Walmart, when people — I — I saw him in an interview a couple of years ago, people are criticizing them. And he says this he says, we are the agent of the customer. You — we are not the agent of the supplier, we are the agent of the customer. Our business is to bring the customer, the buyer, high quality products at low, low prices. And that same thing applies with us because our volume is so high that if you walked into one of these markets, and even dealing with the same provider, if you found out oh, who’s — who’s Jason dealing with in Memphis, you know and you ran over to them, trust me you would not get the same kind of experience going through them individually as you would get going through us.
And — and I know this is true because we’ve heard the horror stories. We had the clients do it. And so when someone’s asking us about Las Vegas or any other market that we’re not in, that we’re not recommending at this time, I just want to say it’s not just about the market, it’s also about the team that you have in that market. That is critically, critically important. Steve, do you have anything — you want to elaborate on that?
Steve: You’re exactly right. When we look at a market everybody, we’re looking first at the overall fundamentals of the market. What is the unemployment rate like? What’s the economy like? What’s the trend in — in pricing and in rents? Assuming those things check out, next we look at — okay well, what about the execution on the ground, because we — we care a lot more about that. That’s really key in this single family arena.
Jason Hartman: I’ll give you one example of that, Steven and please hold the rest of that thought. But it’s just yesterday our provider in Charlotte, North Carolina — and we like Charlotte market. We have not been doing much business there though, because our provider’s just not providing good stuff.
They came to me and I financed personally, well one of my companies, finances a lot of the properties that our vendors, our local market specialists purchase. So, we’re in on the supply chain at two angles. We’re — we’ll actually finance the properties for them to purchase and rehab the properties and some of our clients do this as well, and then our clients will end up buying the properties for investment. And he’s pitching me on this deal of fourteen different condos he wants me to finance and then recommend to our clients. And I turned the deal down. I looked at it. I — he sent me all this stuff. I talked to him on the phone for about a half hour about it, yesterday, just yesterday, and I — I — I said no thanks. I don’t want to recommend this to our clients because I — I’m not crazy about condos. And he said well, no problem. You know he’s got — he’s got lots of people over in England who will just snap up condos like crazy.
Folks I’m telling you, these condos are just not as good. I mean we occasionally recommend condo deals, but it’s pretty rare. We just — we’re really picky about the deal because we got to live with it. Okay.
Steve: We really do. We really do. All of the investment counselors, myself included, Jason I — I say this in jest but Jason makes us provide life time support to our clients, and when there’s issues, we get the call and we have to live with it.
Jason Hartman: That’s the only way, Steve, to make sure you guys aren’t looking for a quick buck. I used to say — I used to have a different system years ago and I used to say when we used to had — we had a different position in the company called Arian Manager. We no longer have Arian managers. We — we found out that that didn’t work as well as the system we have now, but back then the — the deal was, you know I had all these different Arian managers with a company that would want to open market.
They would come to me, hey this market looks good, that market looks good, that market looks good and I — I had to institute the — the instant quality control plan. I just said look, if you think it’s good and you want to recommend it to our clients, because they’re all saying it’s good because they know they can sell the properties and make money. They can have — they can override on that. And I said look, if you think it’s good and you want to recommend it to our clients, you go buy a property there first and then I’ll allow you to recommend it to our clients. And suddenly the number recommendations dropped automatically.
Steve: What do you know?
Jason Hartman: Yeah, what do you know? And — and so the thing I do now is I say look, you’ve got to support the client who — who you sold the property to for life and that’s the deal.
Steve: Yeah, that’s — that’s my issue with Vegas. I thought six months ago that there — there was a law in the books down there that I — I thought was kind of masking what was really happening in the market. It’s — it’s off now. I thought we were going to see some improvement but prices have continued to — to skyrocket at Phoenix levels and I just don’t think — even if we had a good team on the ground in Vegas and you know we’re going to get thirty calls now, we’re a good team you know, but that — that aside, I don’t think that the cash flow’s any good. I think that the property prices have raised a lot quicker than the rents in Las Vegas and you’ll be getting very medico, if any cash flow in a market that is extremely volatile, historically.
Jason Hartman: Well, let me tell you another thing. As we’re saying all of this, I’m not saying we’re — we’re never going to recommend Las Vegas, we — we did a long time ago before that bubble blew up on the last cycle, but there’s one other thing I don’t like about Las Vegas and I — it — it’s just my opinion, but I think the legal system is corrupt there.
There was a big expose a couple of years ago in the L.A. Times about how the Las Vegas legal system is just — is just corrupt because — now forgive me if I’m not remembering this correctly, but it’s something like if a party goes in front of a judge, you know whether they be the plaintiff or the defendant goes in front of a judge and they donated to that judge’s campaign, the judge does not have to recuse he or herself from the case. They can still hear the case and rule on it, and they don’t even have to disclose it to the other party that there might be a conflict of interest here.
Now, I’m not sure I’ve got that all right, but that’s what I remember.
Steve: Are we talking about Venezuela or Las Vegas?
Jason Hartman: Yeah, exactly. I mean just — it’s unbelievable. I just don’t like doing business there that much, but I might overcome my dislike for a few of these things that we’re talking about. If we had incredible team and the deals were really good, I can overcome a couple of things I don’t like if I like enough other things, you know it’s a balancing game. It really is.
Steve: Yeah, right. I — I think we would just being scratching and clawing for every deal. The competition is so intense with money that goes in there and — and just pays a lot at the option. So, the joke of the day if you invest in Las Vegas right now, I think you would be gambling, ha ha.
Jason Hartman: Lost wages Nevada.
Steve: Yep. Hey and everybody, it’s not to say you can’t make money there. There are people doing it but I think it’s — it’s a much more cut throat market that is better suited right now for very experienced and well capitalized flippers and if we get a good team that could put up good cash flow in good numbers than we will revisit this, but for now that’s not the case.
Jason Hartman: You got it. And sometimes gamblers make money and this is the problem folks, we all get tempted by the shinny objects, right, the siren song of investing for the great myth. It’s a great myth the sirens, and these tempting trinkets that are in front of us, we’ve got to be careful. It’s — it’s like I had to bum a lot of people out with my slow, steady, conservative approach. It’s the tortuous and the heir, what we’re about is we’re not about gambling here. If you want to gamble — I’m not saying you won’t win once in a while, but we’re not the company to help you with that. It’s just not our thing. Okay. There are other companies out there that do it.
If you want to watch one of those home flipping shows and you know you can do that stuff and there’s another article we’ve got here about how the home flippers are really taking a lot of risks because the profits are getting so slim and small that they can’t operate and — and a lot of those people get left in the musical chairs game with the music stopping and they’re still standing and this stuff is not as good as it seems a lot of times, right?
Steve: Yeah, you — flipping — you’ve got to be very good at what you do and know your market. I — I don’t think we’re quite the musical chairs but you know we — we could be close. That’s just the challenge. With flipping is you — you never — you never really know. And your boring message of cash flow, cash flow, people in 2011 they’re saying wow, this is the greatest thing I’ve ever heard. Now they’re going hey, should I get a helock and go and personally guarantee some mortgages in the lease —
Jason Hartman: Yeah.
Steve: — you know.
Jason Hartman: Here we go again.
Steve: Here we go again.
Jason Hartman: Yep, yep, I got it. Okay so tell us more about this property.
Steve: Yeah, the Memphis — oh my gosh, it’s right there. Okay.
Jason Hartman: We tend to do that.
Steve: Okay. This one is in Memphis and it’s a very low purchase price of seventy seven thousand dollars. It was built in 1963. Here’s what I really like, it’s only thirty nine dollars a square foot.
Jason Hartman: Wow! So, this is an older property, and we have newer properties and older properties. We have — we have a mix but when you can purchase at you know about half the cost of construction, I mean if this — if this property were to burn down, you’d be looking at about double that to rebuild it.
Steve: Yeah, I think we’re about seventy eight dollars a square to build in Memphis right now. So, we’re right there at about half and you’re getting a cash-on-cash return of thirteen percent on this thing.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, so — so let me just review some of these projections here, okay.
Steve: Yeah.
Jason Hartman: So thirteen percent cash-on-cash, but on cash flow subject to qualifying if you can get a loan, a seventy five percent loan to value, so you put twenty five percent down, it will cost you with closing costs about twenty five thousand to get into this property. And the cash flow out of the property on this performer is thirty one hundred fifteen dollars annually, which that’s what creates your thirteen percent cash-on-cash, and a total overall return on investment projected at thirty five percent annually. I mean wow. And the last recorded sale of this property in ’06 was one hundred nineteen nine hundred. So, pretty — pretty phenomenal —
Steve: Yeah.
Jason Hartman: — you’ve got about one hundred thousand dollars in renovations that are included with this and again, we’ve got two great operators in Memphis that we work with. So, right teams, good support systems there. All right.
Steve: Right. Yeah we — we love it, and it’s — and I should add a little asterisk to this, Jason. This is based on putting twenty five percent down —
Jason Hartman: Right.
Steve: — with a five percent interest rate. So I think this would actually be a little better if it was one of the first four properties that — that somebody you know purchased, because typically those first four mortgages you get, if you are qualified, you can usually get twenty percent down and for — for the mid-fours, if not a little lower. So, I think this could perform a — a little bit better at the end of the day.
These are great cash flows and I kind of track this. If you can get a thirteen percent or fourteen percent cash-on-cash in Memphis on these kinds of properties right now, that’s good, that’s a green light. You know I watch where these are because of all the activity from the — the high volume buyers and this is — this is an — an above average deal right now in Memphis.
Jason Hartman: Awesome. Okay, good. Now, you’ve got one more article that you know we only have a moment. We really got to get going and get out guest on here. Or did you just want to talk about one more property?
Steve: Let’s got to the Austin property.
Jason Hartman: Okay — okay go ahead.
Steve: Yeah.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, since we’re talking about Austin today, we figured this would be fitting.
Steve: That’s correct, yeah. Properties are moving very quickly in Austin. These kinds of properties, and I think I’ve said this on a podcast before, are — let’s say you already own a few properties in Memphis and you want a property that gives some cash flow, has good potential for growth. We’re never going to pull a Las Vegas and say hey, you know I’m going to have a — I may be losing money but Ma, we sure are going out.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, you know — you know what, it’s funny. It’s like an old funny saying. We lose money on every deal but we make it up on volume. That’s what — that’s what — that’s what their gamblers think. Yeah, we lose money every month on cash flow but we’ll make it up on appreciation. Well, if and let me capitalize that. If — and it’s a giant if, if the appreciation happens.
Now, I think it will in most markets but the depreciation is not reliable folks. Appreciation is the icing on the cake. You — you got to invest for cash flow.
Steve: Yep, and so you’re — you’d buy a property in Austin because you’re saying, okay I want some cash flow, I want there to be room for icing but I’m okay if it doesn’t happen because I have cash flow. I — the deal made sense today and you know, that’s what we see in — in Austin. We see a lot of deals like this. You’ll hear how our system works there when Jason interviews our local market specialist in — in just a minute. He actually buys the properties right from the bank in Austin. It’s a pretty cool little technique that we have here so, you’re getting a cash-on-cash of seven percent on this one, so —
Jason Hartman: Yeah.
Steve: — you know, lower. It’s not Memphis returns. You’re getting a thirty percent total return but I ultimately think it’s going to be greater if you get that icing. So that’s — if you’re thinking hey, I’d like to do a ten thirty one exchange in a few years. This is a good property because you can get into it for cash flow. Let’s see what the market does. If it doesn’t do what you want it to, you’re okay. Just keep riding that cash flow train.
Jason Hartman: So tell us about the property, though. You’re looking at the performer, what do the projections say?
Steve: So, it’s a market value of one hundred five thousand right. The gross rent on it is eleven hundred bucks a month, so we’re getting over a one percent rent to value ratio. In Austin, that’s pretty good.
Jason Hartman: That’s pretty phenomenal in a market like Austin. You see —
Steve: Yeah, yeah.
Jason Hartman: — see, markets like really highly desirable cities like Austin and Denver, the deals are just not usually as good cash flow wise. But that’s — that’s pretty good for Austin, for sure.
Steve: Yeah, if you look at how Austin has grown over the years, it’s — it’s — it’s definitely got more movement than some of these linear markets like in Memphis or — or in Indianapolis, for example. So, we real — we really like it. Kevin will talk about what has happened to prices in the last year, you know when we get on this next segment. But yeah, like I said, we’re getting a seven percent cash-on-cash with a thirty percent total return and that’s assuming some pretty conservative things about Austin.
We are being careful on purpose here. So, if you’re in that boat where you’re thinking, you know I’d like to have the option to possibly sell in a few years, I think this is a good market for you because you’re protected either way.
Jason Hartman: Good, good stuff. Well, anything else that you’d like people to know about that property?
Steve: Well, it’s built in 2004. You know, all of our inventory in Austin is newer. The oldest I’ve seen lately was one that was built in 1993. Many of these things were built in the early 2000s so they’re — they’re brand new, easy to manage properties. That’s — that’s the great thing about the newer ones.
You know, I like — I like to tell people, Jason, and — and you’ve mentioned this a lot on the podcasts. When we’re dealing with single family homes, we have the most stable asset in real estate. However, when you’re vacant you’re one hundred percent vacant. So you’re — you’re strength comes and inquiring as many of these as you can, just spread that vacancy risk out. And so if you’re somebody who’s thinking I really want the best odds possible, these kinds of properties I — I refer to them as tier one. They’re newer. Your chances of getting a multi-year tenant of having lower than expected vacancy, lower than expected turn over are much greater on these kinds of properties. They’re very solid performers day in and day out.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, I agree. I couldn’t agree more. That’s what you want is this solid good performing stuff. Single family homes are just tried and true. They’re not super sexy but gosh I tell you, people have made — made fortunes in them. Many, many millions of people have done this. This is not some high in the sky idea. It’s been done and it’s been done again.
Steve: They’re not super sexy right now, but they’re like the girl in high school that had braces and a lot of zits and you see her ten years later and you’re going whoa, what happened to her?
Jason Hartman: Yeah and — and let me guess. Ten years later, she can hold a job, she shows up on time for things, she’s not a flake, you know. There’s some nice — nice benefits to go with that stuff.
Steve: Exactly right, exactly right.
Jason Hartman: Yeah. She’s — she’s – she’s easier to manage if you will. I’m going to get hate mail on that one.
Steve: Yeah, yeah.
Jason Hartman: Okay, I apologize, that’s not what I meant.
Steve: I’ve got about thirty emails. Way to go.
Jason Hartman: You know what I mean. Anyway, okay good. Well Steve, thanks for joining us today and let’s get to our Austin local market specialist and hear more about this — this phenomenal city. So, we’ll be back with our Austin local market specialist here in just about sixty seconds.
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Jason Hartman: Hey, it’s my pleasure to welcome Kevin to talk about one of our favorite markets. We’ve done a lot of business in here over the years and I personally own in this market as well and it’s one city that I have considered moving to many, many times and that is good old Austin, Texas. Sometimes I refer to it as awesome Texas.
One of the reasons we got out of this market and stopped recommending it is because the prices just got a little bit high and it kind of got away from us and — and prices typically lead the market before rents go up. You see prices go up, that’s pretty much to close to how it works, and I’m glad to say, we’ve got some pretty good properties in Austin. Inventory is scarce but we’re going to talk about it now and Kevin, what say you about the Austin market?
Kevin: Austin market’s on fire as — it’s — it’s been going on for – how long, six to eight months or so. There’s a different feel around town. There’s a lot of people purchasing, a lot of investors in town. Our rental market is unbelievable right now, businesses are moving here. Unemployment rate’s at five percent or so. So, market — the market’s doing well.
Jason Hartman: That is fantastic. Well, let’s just kind of back up first and talk generally about real estate investing and — and why you and your clients like it and then we’ll kind of roll down and talk about Austin, specifically in more details and what’s going on there. Okay?
Kevin: Well, I think the mark — you know the market will speak for itself. I’ve — I’ve been in this industry for — gosh it’s going on ten years now and the feel around town is it kind of feels like back in the — 2007 when there was a lot of — a lot of movement going on in here, and — and it’s — it’s a good feel. Inventory’s a little bit low obviously, but I’m still able to find some good properties that are out there.
I send them out on a daily basis to — to my clients and people are jumping on top of them and — and they’re getting some — some good cash flow and — and sometimes some — some hits from appreciation so far.
Jason Hartman: Fantastic. And you — you have about two hundred properties under management or two hundred units under management I should say to be exact, and why do your investors like property investing so much? I mean, what is it — what is it that draws them?
Kevin: I think now there’s just a tangible factor. The fact that something here, it’s on the ground. They can — they can see stats that are going to help — help them feel good about their purchase. You know, they can come here and visit the property. They — they’re — they’re collecting rents on a — on a monthly basis and of course there’s risks with any kind of investment but I think that it’s lower risks with people now days. They’re not — they’re not as concerned about their money as they are when they — when they put in the market. So, people just enjoy having something on the ground that they can go take a look at, that they can follow up on, they can fly into town and come see and I — I think that it’s — it’s mainly lower risks for people now.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, yeah, no question about it. And when you say the market, you’re referring to the stock market in that case. So, definitely the tangible asset is very desirable and notice, everybody that the first word of real estate is real. So, I think that should be a clue as to what — what’s so great about it. It’s a real tangible asset class and that’s why I’ve always loved it.
Now, where are your investor clients located? I mean they’re all over the country, I’m sure, but you have international clients probably too, right?
Kevin: I have very little. Most of my clients have come from the west coast. I’ve got some that have — that are local now days because there is — there’s just so much out of State money coming — coming into town that some of the people got into the game here and not only do they live here but they purchased a couple of them. I — I don’t have a whole lot of international, but I — I’m starting to see a nice little trickle of them coming as well.
Jason Hartman: Good stuff. Well, you’re going to have a lot more international clients from us, because people all over the world want to get into U.S. real estate. So tell us a little but more about what’s going on in the Austin marketplace if you would, and you know why Austin’s an attractive place to invest? I mean, you have some very large stable employers. You have the University of Texas, okay which is huge and I don’t know how many people it employs but I know it’s a big number. You have the — the state government and colleges and governments don’t go out of business. And then you have a whole tech industry and a bunch of other industries there as well, right?
Kevin: Right, and they’re continuing to move in. We have Dell computers. We have Sam — Samsung branch here. We’ve got 3M, we’ve got IBM. A lot of the — a lot of big simi-conductor type businesses are here in town. The government’s huge. You are we the — the capital of Texas, so there’s a lot of government jobs that are around, and — and there’s a lot more businesses that are leaving here, not only because of the climate, because of the tax cuts that — that Texas is giving.
So, with business — big businesses moving in that also means that employees are moving in and — and they’re you know purchasing homes or — or also renting homes.
Jason Hartman: And what else are you seeing about the marketplace? Can you show me statistics, maybe on what — what the inventory numbers look like, the speed of sales, prices, etcetera?
Kevin: Yeah, well it — it is a hot market which means you know there’s — there’s a little bit less inventory that there was even six months ago. I’m — I’m starting to see some appreciation numbers which are blowing my mind. I — I think March — one of the title companies sent out a report that said that year over year appreciation was about fourteen point seven five percent.
I – I know our unemployment is — is right around five percent. The REO market has — is starting to dwindle a little bit because not too long ago in the — in the local MLS, there’s about three or four hundred total in the Austin — Austin area and when I looked today there was about one hundred fifty. So, it’s starting to shrink, but that’s — you know that’s — that’s what I do on a daily basis is I go out and — and just try to do as much analysis and research to find a good property that I can for — for my clients to jump on.
Jason Hartman: And how hard is it to turn up that inventory and — and how do you do it if you want to share any details on that?
Kevin: Well, I do it by getting up — getting up really early and trying to find — find some that are available, do the research on — on the local MLS. You know, I don’t — I don’t use Zillow or any of these other websites that are out there because I’m — I’m coming straight from the source. So, I’ll do as much analysis as I can to — to send properties out and — but the worst — the bad part is, I’m not the only one doing it. Usually on the good deals, we’re going to be dealing with multiple offers right now. So, we’ve got to kind of be a little bit aggressive. We’ve — we’ve got to be smart with our offers because there’s — there’s a lot of people out there that are purchasing.
I had one property that was kind of in the downtown area and it was the second day on the market. I had some clients interested, some cash buyers, it was about an eighty thousand dollar property and when I called the agent and told him I had an offer coming in, he said well, that’s great but you’re offer number seventeen.
Jason Hartman: Wow.
Kevin: So, almost gone. So, we definitely backed away from that one and went and found another one. But that’s kind of the — the beast right now.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, that’s a tough dragon to slay is multiple offers. I’ve dealt with them many, many times. Any particular areas in Austin that you think are better suited for investors?
Kevin: Well, I think the county just north of — of the Austin area has a few suburbs that I really specialize in. My office is out in that area. We’re probably about eighty percent of the properties that we manage are there. All the schools are exemplary. There’s some businesses that are moving in. All the restaurants and the big box stores are all moving out there. There’s some toll road that came out that really made it a lot easier to get all over town. So we — we — we mainly focus in kind of that northwest, northeast part of Austin where fam — families are moving. Families want to go there because their kids are going to be in good schools, good, safe, nice neighborhoods and areas for — for people to live.
Jason Hartman: And name some cities off, if you would.
Kevin: Sure, gosh Cedar Park, Leander, Round Rock, Pflugerville, Hutto, Georgetown, any of those are going to be great purchases.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, yeah and we’ve done a lot of business in those cities over the years and I personally own in Pflugerville myself. So, yeah I agree, very stable, great places. Where are you seeing the tenants now? Are they willing to pay increased rents or are a lot of them looking — they want to buy, I know that because it’s a great time to buy, but not everybody can because a lot of people are recycling and recovering from a foreclosure or a short sale or it’s generation wide with huge student loan debt and that’s preventing them from buying. What do you see going on in terms of the tenants? Like what’s their perspective now?
Kevin: Sure. Well, our apart — I saw something not too long ago that the apartment complexes in — in the Austin area are ninety six to ninety eight percent full. So that’s going to overflow into the housing market. People are paying an increased amount in rent. I — I pity my clients that if they — they have a new tenant that’s moving in and the tenant may want to sign a two or three year lease, I — I strongly advise my owners not to allow that because after one year your — ninety percent of the time – ninety nine percent of the time, you’re going to be able to increase the rent.
Rents are always going up a little bit at a time, but people are still — still paying it. There’s a lot of people out there that can’t — they just can’t qualify for a house. The lending laws haven’t — haven’t loosened up hardly at all so more and more people are — are still needing to rent. And with that also, there’s a lot of people moving here from out of state that don’t really know the area well enough, that don’t want to commit to a purchase because they don’t know the schools, they don’t know the neighborhoods. So, they’re coming here, they’re renting for a good year, maybe you know two to get their feet on the ground, figure out where they want to buy or build. Maybe build their credit a little bit more and then purchase at a later date.
So, we’re getting — we’re getting nice sized rents and — and with all the properties that we have with — when one comes available and it’s on my — on my leasing agent’s boards, within days usually, we’ll have multiple applications on it. So, it’s a great time of year.
Jason Hartman: Yeah. How many tenants go bad? You know, how often does it happen that you’ve known or is facing an eviction and talk about that process. It’s pretty landlord friendly in Texas, which is one of the things we love about it. So, if you own property in the Socialist Republic of California, man good luck getting your tenant out of your house.
Steve: I’ve — I’ve heard that and here it is, the — the — the whole process can usually take thirty days or less. Within you know the seven/eight years I’ve been doing this, I’ve probably had to evict a total of five tenants. I think we do a really good job of doing the pre-screening and making sure that the — that we put the right people in each house. But it’s — it’s a pretty simple process from posting on the door to filing with the county. The cost that would go for the house, give them a court date and then they’ve got — I don’t know, three days after the court date to be out. So, it’s — it’s a quick, painless — and of course we’d never want to do it and — and we try to avoid it as much as possible. You know, it’s part of business but a good handful within those seven/eight years and — and — and it’s a — it’s a — it’s a quick process, for sure.
Jason Hartman: And what can the tenant do to make it harder? Can they contest the eviction? Can they — can they sort of play the game, if you will, and make it really difficult for the landlord?
Kevin: Well, every time — every time I’ve gone to court and stood up there in front of the judge with the tenant, the tenant usually doesn’t — you know the judge just wants to know, did you pay your rent? And if they have an excuse — whatever the excuse may be, the judge’s question again, did you pay your rent? And if the answer is no, then there’s not — there’s not a whole lot a tenant can do. They’re — they’re going — they’re going to file for the — with the owner and — and proceedings continue.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s — that’s great for owners, it definitely is. So it’s landlord friendly. You can get them out in about a month if you should have a problem and if you have two hundred units under a management and — and you say you’ve only had maybe a handful of evictions in seven or eight years, that’s like five, that’s a pretty incredible record. I mean, good tenant quality, huh?
Kevin Good tenant quality. It’s — it’s family. You know, we’re dealing with — with the husband and the wife and a couple of kids and maybe a dog or a cat every now and then that are just hard working people that want to keep a roof over their head. They’ve got people that may not have the best credit in the world, they couldn’t pay their — their Sears bill or maybe some medical bills, but boy that roof over their head and keeping their kids in school is the most important thing to them. They say, I’ll take care of that over — over any other payments.
Jason Hartman: Yeah. I agree with you and — and with — with family type tenants there’s a lot of social pressure. That’s what I’ve noticed. And that’s one of the — the great things about good old single family home. The tenant quality is almost always better than it is in say, apartments. And then there’s a lot of social pressure for them to stay in that house. So they tend to figure out a way to make it work.
Kevin: And I — and I also think that different neighborhoods provide a family atmosphere for — for families.
Jason Hartman: Right.
Kevin: And you know, they’re out in their front yards, the kids are riding their bikes around. They — they — they’re going to stay. It’s not like an — an apartment where a lot of people kind of treat it as — as the what’s next.
Jason Hartman: Exactly, exactly. Well, what — what else do you want people to know?
Kevin: Well, I just think that if — if people are looking into the Austin area, reach out to me and I will help find a property if we have the rehab crews to take care of any kind of rehab that needs to take place. We do the property management, we screen the tenants. You’re not going to be dealing with a whole lot of people. You’re going to be dealing with myself and my staff, and we’ve — we’ve got a long history of being able to help the investors purchase — purchase good, quality properties. And I’ve got plenty of references that we can send your way from people that are all over the United States and — and hopefully people will continue to give us a good word and people will continue to purchase from us and I think that if — it’s — it’s definitely the best time in — in the many years I’ve been doing it, it’s the best time to purchase, and also we’re about to roll into that summer time where there’s a lot of movement going on. So, dealing with investment property needs a tenant in the next four, five, six months, this is the time to buy because there’s going to be a lot more people moving in to Austin, for sure.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, yeah, fantastic. And — and what are the prospects for Austin? Maybe just talk about that for a moment. Any stats you’ve read or — or know of on — on growth projections, things like that?
Kevin: All I know is that what I’m reading on the real estate side with appreciation, the different numbers that they’re talking about that we’re finally not going to be that state that just had a slow, gradual prime. I think they’re talking about — about some appreciation numbers starting to be a little bit — a little bit higher that — that might make people a little bit more money long term.
Jason Hartman: Terrific city, great growth. You didn’t mention some of the attractions of this city. I mean it’s one of the big music capitals of the U.S. It’s certainly the live music capital when you segment it that way, but the — the entertainment, the restaurants, the culture, do you want to mention anything about that? I mean you know it’s very attractive in that way. It’s — it’s very pretty. I think the prettiest city in Texas. It’s got some topography to it. It’s got water ways.
Kevin: Yeah, we’ve got a few — few different lakes that’s very environmentally friendly. There’s — there’s Greenbelts all over the place. It’s ––it’s centrally located to where you can get into any of the other major areas quickly, like the — the coast — the beaches three hours way.
San Antonio’s an hour away. Houston’s two hours away. Dallas is three hours away. We’ve got New brothels right down the street that has rivers that run through it with — for water — water rapids and — and tubings within the city, definitively. The – you know the downtown district is — is a great place to go listen to live music, there’s great restaurants. There’s — there’s building toped cafes and bars and coffee shops all over the place.
The feel of downtown now has — has changed a little the last ten years. There’s a — there’s people that come to college here. Fifty five thousand students on a — on any given year at the University of Texas alone. That’s not including all the other campuses around. Fifty five thousand students go to school here and nobody wants to leave. We have starving attorneys in this city because people are going to get [inaudible] and they don’t want to leave Austin because they’re just so in love with everything that this place has to offer.
Jason Hartman: You know what I got to make a comment on that. I used to have a partnership with a mortgage company and they were based at the time in Dallas. But before that, they did a lot of business and were based in Austin and one of the funny things that the — the owner of this company said to me — I happened to be talking on the phone with him when I was in Austin inquiring a property for myself, and looking at properties for clients, and I — I said I was in Austin, he said, oh Austin. I just remembered that was the most interesting place to employ people because you would get — you would get a secretary who’s got a PhD who would work for — at the time like — I — I can’t remember the number he quoted, but it was a very low number, eighteen thousand dollars a year, or you know and this — and he was talking a few years back when he ran his company in Austin and now it would be thirty thousand maybe or something, I don’t know, adjusted for inflation. But he said, it was amazing the — the education level, the high quality of the help for hire there for very little money because the people didn’t want to leave. They liked the environment so much they liked the city so much that even if they couldn’t make as much money, they’d stick around because they just loved Austin.
Kevin: They want the lifestyle. They’ll — they’ll — they’ll sacrifice a little bit financially to be able to live the lifestyle of — of the laid back Austin lifestyle and you know our night life is — it’s — it’s interesting. You got out to some of these really nice steak houses here and you know in other parts of the world, if you’re not wearing a suit and a tie, you’re — you’re going to get shunned upon and — and here you come in and — and you know, in nice shorts and a — and a golf shirt and some flip flops and you’re welcome.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, yeah.
Kevin: It’s — it’s definitely about the laid back atmosphere which — which is nice.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, fantastic. Well Austin’s a great place and do you want to mention anything about any of the outline markets? We’ve been doing some good business lately in San Marcos and I just wanted to give you the opportunity to comment on that, if you wish.
Kevin: Yeah, I know — you know San Marcos is where I went to college myself, and — and — and it’s a great growing city, as well. I think from — from Austin to San Antonio is kind of — there’s — there’s so much growth in between the two that — that eventually it’s all just going to be one big muncho-plex. But any — any — any of the outskirts of town where you can — where the dirt is so cheap and there’s builders that are still going out there and getting — building homes in kind of that right, sweet spot of a — of a home where you can get it a — a good amount of rent, you — you can’t go wrong with it.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, good stuff. Well hey, thanks so much for joining us and — and updating the listeners on the Austin marketplace and we really appreciate it.
Kevin: You bet. Thanks, Jason.
Jason Hartman: Be sire to call into the Creating Wealth Show and get your real estate, investing and economics questions, answered by me, personally. We’d love to have you call in, share your experiences, ask your questions and a lot of other people listening have those very same questions. So be a participant in the show at 480-788-7823. That’s 480-788-7823 or anywhere in the world via Skype Jason Hartman ROI. That’s Jason Hartman ROI for return on investment. Be sure to call into the show and we are going to enter all of the callers in a drawing for some nice prizes as well. So, be sure to call into the show and I look forward to talking with you soon.
Female Voice: This show is produced by the Hartman Media Company. All rights reserved. For distribution or publication rights and media interviews, please visit www.HartmanMedia.com or email [email protected]. Nothing on this show should be considered to be specific personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own and the host is acting on behalf of Empowered Investor, LLC., exclusively. (Top image: Flickr | TexasExplorer98)
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