To start the show, Jason Hartman shares a Business Insider Article by Bob Bryan about dwindling investment property inventories. He advises that if you are on the fence about increasing your income property portfolio, do it in hybrid markets. Afterward, Jason interviews Bill, who helps manage Fernando’s Atlanta and Texas properties. They talk about the tools necessary to self-manage income properties: Rently lockboxes, handYman websites, and Property Management Software.
Announcer 0:00
This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit Hartman media.com.
Announcer 0:12
Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it on now. here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution. Real estate investors.
Jason Hartman 1:03
Welcome to the creating wealth show. This is your host Jason Hartman with episode number 746. And greetings from Las Vegas, Nevada, where I have been becoming somewhat of an expert in the real estate market here. And looking at properties here over the last couple of weeks, on and off. It is really quite amazing. Some of the revelations I’m going to share with you on future episodes, not this episode about this, but on some future episodes very, very soon. I’m going to share some interesting things I have learned looking at different price segments in markets that I think applies just to our overall real estate knowledge and education worldwide. Regardless of what real estate market you’re in. I think it’ll be interesting for you so that is to come. But today we are going to talk a little bit about real estate tools. You know, Fernando and I acquired that company last year. That is the owner of property tracker property shopper, and several apps for iPad and iPhone, and some interesting remote in self management techniques, as we interview one of the people who actually doesn’t, who actually does the work of self managing properties, and I don’t believe that this episode will be an exhaustive summary of that by any means. We’re going to have him back on the show to discuss and dive into some more topics in much greater detail in the future. But I think you’ll get a pretty good overview of what goes on in managing, you know, decent sized real estate portfolios for private and small investors, as we talked to Bill about this and dive into some of the things that he does and and how he manages managers and also self manages properties. A Business Insider article, Bob Bryan wrote October 27. interesting article pending home sales jump, despite painfully painfully tight housing market a painfully tight housing market. Now, as you know, and as I’ve said many, many times, articles like this are always misleading. Yes, they are always misleading in statistics are always misleading. Why is that? Well, because there are so many ways you can peel back this data. One of the things in this article not mentioned, which I think is huge, it’s a huge issue is the issue of geographic segmentation. And also, along with that, but not always along with it. Price segmentation, price segmentation probably being the most important thing that is complete pletely missing from this discussion, but overall, I would agree with the article. And let this be a warning to you. If you are listening, and you’re sitting on the fence and you’re thinking, hey, I’ve got those six properties, or I’ve got those eight properties. And, you know, there’s no urgency to build more in my portfolio and get another five or six properties going. I’m just giving an example. It might be one or two or your first one or it might be your, your 50th property, or it might be your 100 and 50th. property, who knows. But you might be thinking like so many and I think very, very wrongfully, I think this will be a huge mistake. Of those of you out there. Who believe there’s a housing drop in store a price drop in housing now wait a second. Make sure you heard me right when I said that. I didn’t say there wouldn’t be what the Talking Heads and the generalist and the nonspecific the misleading. main stream media calls a housing drop. I didn’t say they wouldn’t be saying that or that wouldn’t happen, because I believe that in the 20 markets that make up the Case Shiller index, 14 to 15 of those depending on how willing you are to lean into the hybrid area of the market, remember three kinds of markets, linear, hybrid and cyclical. The Case Shiller index, two thirds of the Case Shiller index are no three fourths of the Case Shiller index is cyclical, high flying markets that I wouldn’t touch. I wouldn’t recommend those markets. For the prudent overall strategy. Yes. If you’re listening to this, and you’re you’re a wealthy person. And you want to speculate a little bit, if you want to take 10% of your portfolio or 10% of your net worth and take some risky bets, hey, you know, feel free. Okay, that’s fine, but just understand what you’re doing when you do it. You’re not being a prudent cashflow investor, you’re taking a gamble. You’re not following commandment number five. That is, Thou shalt not gamble. And it’s interesting. I’m talking about this sitting in my hotel room in Las Vegas, right? But, you know, it’s fine to do that because a lot of times, you can win on those deals. Okay, I’ve won on those deals many times in, in my old life. When I lived in Southern California when I lived in Orange County, California. I did a lot of what I used to call investing when I was really just a speculator or a gambler. But a lot of times those things worked out for me, and if they didn’t work out, guess what I did. kept them long enough to force them to work out. What do I mean by that? Well, since income property, since real estate is a game of staying power, it is a game of staying power. If you can sustain your, I don’t want to say investments if you can, if you can sustain your portfolio to get to the next cycle, then you can always win. You can artificially win by doing it that way, right? And so many times I did that, and for really decades, I could say, with absolute certainty and confidence that I never lost money on a real estate deal. Now lost you know how the IRS has the difference between realized gain and loss and recognize gain and loss. See paper, if you had to remember that one of the phrases we learned during the Great Recession, what is that mark to market? Yes, when these various funds, these various banks, they had to mark to market their assets in their portfolios. And there could be a paper loss on paper, but hey, if you can sustain, then you can force an ultimate win, potentially. Now, granted, you can’t always do this, but most of the time, you really can because income property or real estate in general, and I, you know, even if it doesn’t produce income is a game of staying power. And as long as you can stay, then you can ultimately win the game in almost every case. I mean, there may be a few exceptions out there where things just never come back. Detroit. Hey, Detroit, I think I’m talking about you. Yes. I’m not talking about you in recent years, Detroit. I’m talking about you. Overall, if you took in real dollar calculations, and you looked at the, for example, the Detroit real estate market over the decades, it’s never come back. And it may never come back in comparison to its prior glory days. Now, depending on the time sample and the timeframe, of course, you can always argue that, hey, in the last three years things have been going up. Okay, great. But what about compared to 20 years ago, or 30 years ago, or before the Japanese took over the economy car market in the 70s. That comparison? Well, you know, that’s a long time. Of course, it depends on the sample period. It depends on price segmentation, it depends on geographical segmentation, and all of these different things. By the way, excuse my dog. That was Coco making one of her funny sounds back there. If you heard it, it didn’t come from me. Okay, so anyway, this Business Insider article I’ve met on a rant and a tangent here. Let me just share with you a couple of things, pending home sales jump, despite painfully tight housing market. Why is it titled that way? Well, more properties went under contract, even though inventory was so tight, alright, that’s what it means. So if inventory was looser, if there was more inventory in the marketplace, they might have jumped even more. So this equation gets kind of complicated when you’re not just making widgets. If you’re talking for example, about Apple and the release of a new iPhone or a new laptop or whatever, they are not really constrained in terms of how many of those they can make. But the real estate market by its nature has this built in massive what scarcity it has a massive scarcity but And so, sales might have improved even more. If inventory wasn’t so limited. That’s what the title of that article says. Okay, a couple things from the article, pending home sales grew by 1.5% in the month of September, according to the National Association of Realtors, by the way, always take everything NAR says with a grain of salt because they’re like the cheerleaders for real estate and they always try to make it sound good. But, but you know, they do have some great data and you know, they’re not I don’t think they’re manipulating the data in any big way. I do think that they will generally try to spin it well. And of course, we’ve had Lawrence Yun on the show in the past, the chief economist for the National Association of Realtors. And you know, it’s been a while since Lawrence you and has been on, we probably should get him back just to hear what he has to say lately, and so we’ll plan on doing that. I’ll invite him back on the show. Okay. The jump brought the pending home sales of single family homes condos and co ops to their fifth highest level of the last year. According to NAR chief economist for NAR Lawrence Yun said the demand for homes is staying high with increasing wages and a tight labor market helping support buyer interest. Now, you know the question of course, you have to ask yourself there is compared to what, because overall, if you look at it from say the year 2000 or the early 90s, or even some would argue the late 80s. Americans really haven’t had a real pay increase in real dollar terms in all those years. But that is another discussion for another episode. We’ve discussed it before going on the article says buyer demand is holding up impressively well this fall with realtors reporting much stronger foot traffic coming To a year ago said you in there in the release, on the other hand, said you the supply of homes on the market is making the house search for increased number of buyers particularly difficult. Okay, so from a buyer’s perspective here, what he’s saying, of course is that, hey, you may be totally motivated to buy a home, you are qualified to buy a home, you are ready to buy a home, you’re ready, willing and able buyer. You go out into the marketplace and you look and guess what? The inventory is so tight, that everything is a trade off. Everything is a compromise. Everything is a disappointment. You have your eye on a property and it gets stolen right out from under you. Boom. You know, just like that. And look, this happens. A lot of you clients listening, no, this has happened to you. It’s happened to you in our network. We do not run the real estate on We have good properties for you to buy. But guess what, we have other clients too when these other clients are looking at those properties and if if you’re sitting on the fence if you snooze, you lose if you don’t make a decision that those properties can get stolen right out from under you by another client who is more ready, willing and able. So you gotta be decisive right? Okay going on. The one major predicament in the housing market is with without a doubt the painfully low levels of housing inventory in much of the country’s had you its leading tone prices, outpacing wages, property selling a lot quicker than a year ago, and the home search for many prospective buyers being highly competitive and drawn out because of the shortage of listings at affordable prices. You know, there you go. That really sums it up right there. Very well, I don’t even need to read the rest of the article, because that’s the bottom line folks. inventory is very tight, however, and here’s the caveat to it. It is not very tight in the high end markets in the McMansion world, we are starting to see in many markets across the country. Not that this really matters to you as investors, but I just want you to understand that you need to segment the market up. We are seeing a dramatic increase in days on market for expensive large McMansion type properties. So I think the high end is definitely petering out in many, many places. Of course, there are always those very high demand neighborhoods with very limited supply of inventory. And those may always be tight markets, okay, but largely in the high end market. Nationwide, there are real signs of softening. So, if you are listening and you happen to be thinking, well I’m going to buy a McMansion for myself, be choosy. There’s a lot of inventory in most places. Be careful and make sure you negotiate yourself a very good deal. All right, though, those are the words the wise most of you aren’t even doing that because you’re following my advice, which is largely to of course, invest in bread and butter type housing, and if you can rent your McMansion. Okay, so more on that on future episodes as I am going to talk a little bit about what I’ve learned, looking around the Las Vegas real estate market in the last couple of weeks, but even the last couple of months as well, which I think has some good lessons for nationwide investing. So we’ll get to that in a future episode. But without further ado, let’s talk about tools you can use As a real estate investor, let’s talk about remote management. Let’s talk about self management. And I want to apologize in advance the sound quality on this interview is not ideal, but it’s good enough. And you’re going to learn there are some real gems in here. So let’s listen in as we talk to Bill about all of those things. Make sure you go to Jason Hartman comm check out our brand new website, we’ve worked out a lot of the bugs there. And we’ve got some new product sections in the store on the website, some great new products there, check that out. We’ve got our venture Alliance meeting coming up in Phoenix, Arizona. It’s going to be an awesome weekend, first weekend of December, you can join us as a guest or join as a full member. You can learn more about that adventure Alliance mastermind calm and also at the Jason Hartman comm website as well and let’s talk to Bill You know that I’ve had Fernando on the show several times last year, we purchased the real estate tools software company. And we’ve been really working for the last few years on how to give investors options as far as property management, how to empower them to either manage their managers more effectively and more easily, or to actually self manage properties remotely. And as you’ve heard me say on prior episodes, it has completely amazed me what happened many years ago, when one of my property managers got out of the business. And I didn’t really get around to hiring another property manager. And I sort of became an accidental self manager of a property 2000 miles away from me that I had never seen, occupied by a tenant that I had never communicated with and certainly never met. There are some really amazing tools and opportunities. To make this possible nowadays, and we just wanted to talk about it a little bit, and we’ve got Fernando’s assistant bill here to talk a little bit about what he does, though, welcome. How are you?
Bill 19:18
I’m doing well. How are you?
Jason Hartman 19:20
Good, good. It’s good to have you on the show. Bill. Thanks so much for coming on. And I have to apologize in advance. We don’t have ideal sound quality on this interview. So please excuse the sound quality, but I think you’ll really enjoy the content. Anyway, Bill, tell us a little bit about what it is you do. And maybe first what’s your background? Were you in property management or, or your real estate investor or give us a little idea, a sense of your background?
Bill 19:41
Well, my background is in public accounting, spent about 25 years doing that. We most of our clientele or financial institution, small community based banks, and so after many years of traveling and being away from home on a Saturday I didn’t want to do that anymore. So the accounting firm, I did manage a family owned community bank for a year or two, and then decided didn’t want to do that either. So I moved to Atlanta and started working with if you’ve ever heard of the group out of Dallas home investors, we buy ugly houses and then try to or I was engaged to help the corporate office set up accounting systems for all the franchisees. Through that I got to know quite a bit, quite a number of franchisees over the states and then in 2008, when the bottoms start to fall out, they need to make a living and many of them got into property management. here in Atlanta, I got involved with a couple of them they upset a property man The company’s in for about seven or eight years now I work. And so that’s how I got my background in property management,
Jason Hartman 21:13
right doing accounting for property management companies, right?
Bill 21:16
Well doing accounting and then actually, for about five or six years now I’ve actually been doing all phases of property management.
Jason Hartman 21:26
Fantastic. And in your, I guess I’ll say, sort of helping Fernando self manage two parts of his portfolio, group of properties in Atlanta and a group in Austin, right? That’s correct.
Bill 21:39
Yes. Okay, great.
Jason Hartman 21:40
Describe what you do with those properties a little bit. Are you doing? Are you doing the bookkeeping? are you dealing with attendance and none of these have property managers, right. These are all self managed properties, right? That’s correct.
Bill 21:52
They’ve all met Fernando through a property management company that I’m working with. In a bad company manage his properties for about 18 months or two years I guess. And then both he and I decided to leave that company and went with another company that I worked with. And then about four or five months ago, he decided that you just wanted self management he did not want to work for a company or work with a property management company per se. So I agreed to to help him set up the actually manage properties with a tool called folio, property management software.
Bill 22:43
And really single all phases of the property management.
Bill 22:51
Show the property using rent like clock boxes.
Jason Hartman 22:55
Okay, so tell us about the lockbox and how you handle showings. When you don’t have a property manager to show the properties, what are you doing with lock boxes, these are called rent link lockboxes r e n t l y, okay? And it’s
Bill 23:13
each lockbox, each lockbox has its own
Bill 23:18
own address, a numeric address and
Bill 23:23
the company set up your properties with them and they pushed it out to Zillow and all the all the robots people may be going TO to rent properties or look for properties to rent. And they, the owner, potential renter can register with rent late in a code themselves into the property. And
Bill 23:56
then when they come out
Bill 23:59
lockbox Back, renting his time them as to how long they’ve been in the property. They didn’t send them a questionnaire to be filled out. They do. Amazing. Most of them actually do fill nouns and back to us, they give us a critique on the property, what they liked what they didn’t like.
Bill 24:21
And if they’d like to,
Bill 24:25
to
Bill 24:27
make an application.
Bill 24:29
In addition to that, we get guest cards that come in through our folio at same time that we get these really inquiries. And I go ahead and send them an email and an email with an application link so that when they get there, they decide they want to do it and they’ve already got what they need to start the application process. course they have our contact information if they want to speak directly to me. I can but it’s amazing I mean you just go to see the property they like it
Bill 25:07
yeah questions they’ll shoot me a text maybe how
Jason Hartman 25:10
did how do you get that lockbox delivered to and installed on the property? How does that begin because you’re not near the property. You’re not doing this yourself. There’s no actual human you know in ownership or management that’s physically close to that property. So how do you get that lockbox installed and up on that property
Bill 25:33
or course in Atlanta? I am close by so,
Jason Hartman 25:37
right but but Austin you’re not
Bill 25:39
Yeah, but and in Austin, we have a handyman that does a lot of work for us. So I will send a lockbox to him, Have him put him on the property.
Bill 25:52
If it’s
Bill 25:54
vacant, we also send them to the existing tenants. They’re still there. Send it over about UPS or FedEx, give them all the instructions to actually put the box on the house, place the keys in the box. And so that’s how we’ve handled it so far either with an existing tenant or with a handyman that we have there.
Jason Hartman 26:22
Have you had any problems with this system? Have any prospective renters destroyed or stolen anything? There just been any problems in general?
Bill 26:31
There have not in fact, we’ve been using lockbox systems here in Atlanta for years, we’ve rarely show a property. Even before we had something as sophisticated as randomly we just put a contractor’s lockbox on there, the potential renter would call, we would have them text a copy of their photo, their driver’s license or some other photo ID We give them a lockbox code and ask them to call us back. And after all these years, thank goodness, we have never really had any problem from somebody doing.
Jason Hartman 27:10
Right, right. And it certainly could happen. We just want people to know that Okay, so that’s the lockbox and the showing part of it. How do you handle making it rent ready? You have a handyman? How did you find the handyman and what duties can add handyman perform, I mean, they’re not a general contractor, I assume. So just tell us a little bit about making properties rent ready and maintaining them.
Bill 27:35
I like to have hbic contractors go into properties at least twice a year, just to do a checkup if you will, since them, and also try to use them as my eyes on the ground or my gas on the ground, if you will, to give me an idea of what sort of First of all it houses occupied how the tenants Keeping the property if they are not occupied, then I generally will help me figure out what needs to be done to make the house rent ready. Also, many of these guys have friends that are in the business of doing turnover rehabs and have gotten some good names and some good leads from from them about us. We also go out to Angie’s List or
Bill 28:37
one of the
Bill 28:39
websites that advertises and you mean people are contractors and have picked up some very good contractors and handy handyman in that
Bill 28:54
in that fashion as well.
Jason Hartman 28:56
Yeah. Okay, fantastic. Talk to us a little bit about the bookkeeping side of it and dealing with insurance policies and payments and rent collection. Using cozy for all the rent collection I assume
Bill 29:10
we do not. We do in Austin use cozy. In Atlanta, we use as I said out folio, the tenants are given access to a tenant portal and they can make rent payments, they can make a work order requests that way. And so that’s how we collect the majority of the rents still have some folks that want to mail in payments and we will still take
Bill 29:43
mail in payments if they just send them that way.
Bill 29:47
But the work order, seniors very, very nice because they go all in they tell you what they need is they come right to my email I sit down, take a look at them decide that I’m going to Have to go out and do service. And then once that’s done the, and the contractor has to send back a signed work order Bob, signed by the tenant studying at work was actually completed to their satisfaction.
Jason Hartman 30:20
So the tenant is signing that work order. And the tenant is basically being your superintendent, if you will, for their own property that they’re occupying. And they they’re signing the work orders, saying, hey, this work was done on this date. And they they inspect it right. And of course, the tenant there the motivation is very much in alignment with your motivation as the pseudo manager owner, because the tenant wants the property fixed. They’re the ones that brought the issue to your attention in the first place. Right?
Bill 30:55
Exactly.
Bill 30:58
They’re not, they’re not at a client. They don’t have any, they don’t have any interest in
Bill 31:04
falsifying that information.
Bill 31:08
Both about same that same token, the vendors, we hope don’t, but they, they may. So we don’t have that many work orders here. So once I get one back, I’ve got a tenant signature, you know, I don’t call every one of them but I do call quite a number of them to be sure that you know, the work was done satisfactorily. Just kind of checked.
Jason Hartman 31:34
I want to get your opinion on one of the theories under which I i’ve been operating for many years and I noticed this when I became an accidental self manager of that property I’m talking about is my San Antonio property. And here’s my theory about this and I’m pretty sure this holds up in real life. I know Fernando agrees with me on this, but when the property is self managed, It seems to me that because that tenant has the pressure of maintaining the relationship with a landlord, and they look at the landlord is a real person rather than some big amorphous company, a big property management company of some sort, which may not actually be big, but the tenant just views it that way. Right? They tend to be more cooperative most of the time, they tend to be more helpful. They tend to not complain about little tiny things as much, and they tend to take care of some of the repairs themselves. I’ve noticed. That’s been my experience. Would you agree with that? And ultimately, I want to lead up to the idea here, that you may or may not have an opinion on I know I do. You know, is it actually easier to self manage a property then to manage the manager. And the reason I say that bill, and I’ll give you quite a bit of ammunition here, and you can you can glom on to whichever Part of this statement you want but when when you manage a property manager, the property manager has really if you think about it, they they kind of have a conflicting interest. On one hand, they want to satisfy the owner, the investor, right? That’s us. But on the other hand, they also got to keep that tenant happy. And they’re very concerned about tenants running to the internet and writing bad things about property managers, and, you know, going on Yelp and writing reviews about the property management company and so forth. So, you know, there’s an old saying you can’t serve two masters, right. And so you have these kind of different interests that don’t necessarily align all the time. And I just thought I’d ask you about that, in general, whatever thoughts you have,
Bill 33:46
yes, I do think
Bill 33:49
you self manage the property. You can develop a relationship with those tenants that you know, most property managers aren’t there. Good at developing relationships either with tenants or with their clients with their owners. And I have found that, you know, if you talk to these people, you try to understand their problems. Treat them, you know, as human beings, you get a lot of mileage out of that. And that but I do think it’s much easier when you are developing a relationship with the tenants is key, I think in not only for maintenance standpoint, but just the total scenario standpoint.
Bill 34:44
They are more
Jason Hartman 34:46
getting the rent paid on time getting the rent paid in the first place, all of that stuff, right.
Bill 34:50
I mean, whether and let me know, you know, I’m much more inclined to work with somebody if they keep me informed about what’s going on. with them, they’re gonna be like, call me tell me that they’re gonna be like, we can generally try to work out something within, you know, within reason. So, I would say that you know, good relationships with all the all the tenants is key.
Jason Hartman 35:18
Good stuff. What else do you want to say about the the bookkeeping angle and you know that the sort of the office work side of the business? How do you handle insurance, managing mortgage payments and lenders if you have them? I know, I know, many of these properties are free and clear. Just because financing wasn’t available. We love leverage, but there’s a limit to the leverage you can get nowadays, unfortunately, when you buy 70 properties, you don’t get them all leveraged, unfortunately. What about the office work side of the business the sort of the accounting and bookkeeping You know, that’s, that’s your background, but just any tips you have on
Bill 35:52
that? I really do very little of the, the insurance or the mortgage payments for Fernando. Basically what I do for him is to receive the rents post the rents are tenants to pay on land rents are posted to their accounts automatically. Manually post the incoming request and anybody that pays other than online.
Bill 36:19
also pay the bills for the payers
Bill 36:25
and refund security deposits and those kinds of things. All that is pretty much handled by our property management software that we use, which has a very nice accounting function built into it. So we can cut checks and late payments to vendors EVAP check or I can use a debit card or we can send them up an E check those kinds of things. So the counting side of it has really become very simple. Over the years with the advent of such new technology is what we have available to us these days.
Jason Hartman 37:09
Yeah, yeah, sure is. Okay. Good, good stuff. Well, are there any other things you want to share before we wrap up bill?
Bill 37:16
Well, we’ll talk a little bit about the leasing side. Once they make the application what we do is screen them get all their financial information. When I do put all that together, along with some sort of recommendation, Fernando’s whether I think it would be a good tenant or a bad tenant. Try to weed out a lot of them beforehand, which you always have people applying it shouldn’t be applying. I send that over to him. We can have a conversation together about it inside if it’s somebody that you’re willing to rent to. If they don’t have stellar credit, we’ll try to decide if we can make it for perfectly tech a larger security deposit things. Once we get them approved, we they’re not ready to move in immediately we’ll take a holding fee to hold the property for no more than 30 days. We don’t want to give 30 days, but we will go that far. Once they’re ready to move in. We send them an electronic lease or send the lease electronically, I should say for them to review, they actually sign them electronically and it comes back to us
Jason Hartman 38:40
what what software are using for that DocuSign
Bill 38:43
actually is built into, oh,
Jason Hartman 38:46
It’s part of that fully. Okay, great. Yeah,
Bill 38:48
we do send moving inspections that we do before each person moves in. We do one and we’ll send it to them for them to sign Everything is done electronically. I rarely see these dentists anymore.
Jason Hartman 39:07
Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. It is amazing. There’s some great technology out there, Bill, we’ve got to wrap it up. But I’d love to have you back on the show to talk about some of this stuff in a little more detail and some other aspects of what it is you do, but great work on your part. And thank you for sharing a little bit. And I also want to say thanks to Fernando, for inviting you on to the show, so that all of our listeners could learn a little bit more about some of the opportunities in the self management side of the business and again, as an investor, you know, you followed commandment number three, if you’re part of our system, thou shalt maintain control. You can hire a property manager, either one that you choose one that we recommend, or you can self manage, or you can choose between one of the several hybrid options and get some all a cart management services. Take a middle road approach as well. So, Bill, thanks again for joining us. Appreciate it.
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