In this Flashback Friday episode, Jason Hartman talks to the President of Millionaire Corner, Catherine McBreen. Catherine is also the author of “Get Rich, Stay Rich, Pass it On: The Wealth-Accumulation Secrets of America’s Richest Families.” She discusses how stocks affect the number of millionaires we’re seeing and the importance of finding the best financial advisor. Catherine also shares his thoughts on the effect of money on happiness and marriage relations.
Announcer 0:00
This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit Hartman media.com.
Jason Hartman 0:09
Hey, this is Jason Hartman, thank you so much for joining me. Do you know what day it is? Yes, it is flashback Friday, where you hear the best of the creating wealth show and you hear some good prior episodes, some good review. Remember, we’ve got almost 500 episodes out. And you know what? iTunes doesn’t even hold them all if you’re an iTunes listener, if you are listening on Stitcher, thank you for joining us. So we want to bring you some good review stuff. Now. What’s interesting about flashback Friday, it’s a little scary for me. I got to be very, very candid with you on that. Because you the listener, you get the chance to hold my feet to the fire. Did I make any predictions? Was I right? Was I wrong? I’ve been right about a lot of things, but I’ve been wrong about a few. So you can give me a hard time about that if you wish. But it’s flashback Friday, and we will give you the uncensored Best of the creating wealth show with a prior episode. So let’s dive in. Here we go. Remember, this is not current. It’s flashback Friday.
Announcer 1:23
Welcome to creating wealth with Jason Hartman. During this program, Jason is going to tell you some really exciting things that you probably haven’t thought of before, and a new slant on investing fresh new approaches to America’s best investment that will enable you to create more wealth and happiness than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who not only talks the talk, but walks the walk. He’s been a successful investor for 20 years and currently owns properties in 11 states and 17 cities, this program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to financial freedom, you really can do it. And now here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.
Jason Hartman 2:06
It’s my pleasure to welcome Catherine mcbreen to the show. She’s president of millionaire corner in interesting website that compiles research from the spectrum group. And I think she’ll have some interesting insights on on the marketplaces to share with us today. Catherine, welcome. How are you? I’m great. Thanks so much for having me. Well, good. Good. And I will call you Kathy. Throughout the interview. That’s fine. Yeah. So we’re seeing the US is seeing a record numbers of millionaires. And I remember many years ago, when I got into the real estate investing business, there were I don’t know, almost a million millionaires in the country. And now there’s a lot more but of course, to accurately evaluate that number, we would have to adjust for inflation. And I and I haven’t done that. Actually, maybe you guys have but we do have this sort of what many have called and I remember hearing that term for the first time about 12 years ago, the mass affluent population, and this is changing things. It affects the stock market affects bond market, real estate market, precious metals, everything. What are your thoughts on that,
Catherine McBreen 3:08
but I can tell you, we size the market every year. So I can tell you that we believe that there are about 9 million millionaires today. So that’s a that’s a lot more than when we were younger. And there are about 14 point 3 million households that have about $500,000 in net worth. So those are the people that I would call the mass affluent. And I have to tell you, I am a big proponent of the mass affluent because I think the mass affluent people are the ones that have been To be honest, the the most, I guess, for no better term screwed in the last five years by the recession, and by what’s just happened with the tax hikes, etc. Because those people in that group are treated as if they’re much wealthier than they really are. So I mean, it will probably other thing. Obama thinks anybody that makes $249,999 a year has a private chat. So yeah,
Jason Hartman 3:59
he’s out of his mind, obviously. But yeah, I would say the mass affluent and the middle class have have been for lack of a better term screwed the most. But it’s interesting because the mass affluent if you’re saying, What $1 million net worth, is that what you’re putting in the mass affluent? We define the mass affluent, usually as people between $100,000 and a million dollars in net worth. Oh, gosh, that’s
Catherine McBreen 4:24
the middle class. A lot of those assets in there. I mean, if you had somebody 401k balances, or those people who are lucky enough to have pensions, there definitely is what we would call an asset.
Jason Hartman 4:33
Yeah, I don’t I couldn’t agree with you more. I mean, I would Pew have a net worth of say, you know, we’ll take a middle number there a $500,000. And you live in an expensive place like California or New York City, your lower middle class.
Catherine McBreen 4:47
Definitely, that’s not what we find when we do our surveys is that when we look at the people, even in the millionaires, we have what we call millionaires or one to five and then we call people with one that a different, a different vernacular, but about 10% of those are schoolteachers We’re households that include a school teacher. And that’s because they have a great pension. So it can be people that live down the street from you. They actually wealthier than you think. Yeah,
Jason Hartman 5:07
yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Well talk to us about some of the effects this has on on the different markets.
Catherine McBreen 5:12
Well, one of the things that we’re finding, we’ve been doing a lot of surveying around how people feeling like now compared to a year ago, or how did they think that things are going to go in the future, because you know, as you see the stock market go up, everybody assumes that everybody is really positive, but this class is this group that you and I would call the mass affluent, or, you know, the people with the 500,000. They’re really the ones that are the most distressed at this moment, they are less than half of them feel like they’re better off than a year ago. And fewer than half of them also feel like they’re going to be better off in another year. And part of that is because because these people have to have, I guess, bills to pay. And they’re not the ones that are going to financial aid sending their kids to college. And they’re the ones that probably helping an older parent, maybe make it through being retired, that these are the ones that are getting hit very hard with what’s going on. And so they’re very, they weren’t be able to take a lot of their assets and put them into the markets, they kept a lot of them. Our research shows that they kept a lot of their assets in cash for the last three or four to five years. And so they weren’t able to put it back into the market and see the uptick, like the people who had more money were able to do so we see people with you know, who are in the millionaire market, or above that they’re doing really well, because they’re really happy they were able to reinvest in the markets. But these people were basically keeping money in cash so that they could meet their obligations that they needed. And so they they’re really kind of stressed at this particular point. Remember, you’re listening to flashback Friday? Our new episodes are published every Monday and Wednesday. Yeah, so Well, I mean, the markets are up, but not in real dollars. I mean, I did a calculation from the prior peak, I think it was and the Dow would have to be at 15,800, by my rough calculations to to equal where it was before the downturn. So it’s always so misleading when you talk about nominal dollars in real dollars. But why do you say they’re stressed? I mean, I know from a political perspective, you know, as we both agree, we use the S word, they’re getting screwed, or they’re being threatened, at least pretty harshly. But in terms of if they’ve just left their money in the market, they’re not. They’re not doing great. Yeah, they got it out. Yeah. So when do you think they took it out? How do you know that I took it out, like, probably 2000 to 2009. Because that’s when we, historically, when we look at portfolios of people, before the before 2008, most wealthy people, even people in the mass affluent market would have like five to 6% of their overall, you know, portfolio in cash or money markets. Right after, obviously, right after 2008, there were huge amounts, like up to 30% of people, up to 30% of their portfolios was in cash. Today, still people that we call mass affluent have about 19% of their assets in cash, or somebody who’s a millionaire or wealthier, they have, they’ve gone, they still have more than they did before the recession in cash, but they still have only like 10% of their assets in cash, or is this mass affluent group still has about 19 to 20% in cash in cash or cash equivalents. So you know that that’s not getting any kind of return. And they’re hesitant, because, you know, they know that they’re going to be paying higher taxes. And so they don’t think that they’ve really assessed what that means to them on a day to day basis. And they don’t get financial aid when they send their kids to college. And, you know, it’s a lot of all of those different types of things. And they haven’t been able to save for retirement. And a lot of that group as opposed to a lot of the people that we have we see that are millionaires or even wealthier are already retired, so that they’re not worried about retirement, they’ve already faced that hurdle. Whereas a lot of these people are still working during the 40s and 50s. And they’re contemplating retirement and they feel like they’re way behind, they need to be well, and
Jason Hartman 8:46
they’re the sandwich generation, you know, they have parents who are still around, and they’ve got to think about care considerations for those aging parents that are maybe right around the corner, and then they’ve got children too. And so they got to, they got to take care of the kids that haven’t left them as yet. And they got to take care of the parents that are coming back into the nest, if you will, or at least into some sort of care situation. So yeah, a lot of a lot of pressure. No, no doubt about it. You recently released a service called find a financial advisor. And he had some interesting things we talked about off air with the SEC that I found kind of fascinating. Tell us how this helps people find an advisor.
Catherine McBreen 9:23
So we created find an advisor on part of our millionaire corner site with the idea that I don’t know if any of your viewers are familiar with, you know, like Open Table or Angie’s List or something like that, with the idea that we can have people go and look on a survey site and we would do a private survey of that advisors clients. So the advisor couldn’t make it. You know, they couldn’t make people say good things and people said bad things. It was going to be recorded, just like the good things were on our site. And they would have a rating system like how proactive is your advisor, you know, how knowledgeable is he or she does he communicate with you frequently that kind of stuff and the SEC Because there’s a lot of compliance in this particular industry, we felt that it was best that we confronted it out front and went to the SEC to try to get what they call a no action letter. Because a no action letter would say, this is okay, this is good you, we’re not going to like come after you for doing this. Well, the SEC didn’t want to grant us that no action letter because they said that they don’t like the idea of an advisor being able to tout themselves, or advertise himself, in conjunction with people giving testimonials about his or her services. And we tried to argue that these are not advertisements, really, because there could be negative comments on here. But the SEC wasn’t quite ready to get to, I guess, incident this new century, they’re still kind of back in the 1990s, about this particular topic. So hopefully, in the future, they will be
Jason Hartman 10:48
just a reminder, you’re listening to flashback Friday, our new episodes are published every Monday and every Wednesday. Yeah, and you know, I’d like to make a comment on that. And if you have any thoughts, please share them on this, maybe you I don’t know if you’ll want to share them or not. But I think that the SEC, in a way is really in cahoots with the advisors, they kind of like the large companies on Wall Street, they pretend to complain about all these strict regulations. And yet at the same time, they like them because it limits competition, and it keeps new entrants out of the market. I mean, if a company is a private company and wants to go public, the compliance cost in doing so is massive. So that creates less competition in the IPO market, you know, in for investor dollars in public markets. So if you’re already in the game in the inner circle, and you’re already public, are those regulations really so bad for you? They’re keeping the competition low. They they make a high barrier to entry for competitors. So in that way, I mean, I believe that is something that goes on. But But in this way, when it comes to regulating advisors, I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve you know, advisors have been pitching me pitching me pitching me on, oh, invest with us, you know, my group, my team at Merrill Lynch or my team at you know, Ameriprise or maybe they’re independent, Edward Jones, whatever the company is, doesn’t matter. They will be pitching me on why I should do business with them telling me how great everything is, how their clients are making so much money. And yet, when I say something so simple, like, just send me the performance, you have model portfolios for your clients, just send me the performance of your model portfolios for the past three and five years? Oh, we can’t do that the SEC won’t allow it. You know, I can’t give you anything in writing. And I got to just think that that regulation is benefiting advisors?
Catherine McBreen 12:41
Well, I do think that it is time for the SEC or other government agencies, I don’t know what is it is a new Consumer Protection Division. I mean, this would be a perfect kind of tool for consumers. Because what we were trying to say is we’re trying to disclose in a way that its investors understand in most cases, investors really don’t understand what’s going on in this industry. And it’s because it’s so shrouded in secrecy or compliance or whatever. Or it’s just like you said, if my advisor can’t show me how he or she’s done in the last few years, well, why is that? And I mean, I understand why, to some extent be because of the intricacies of all of the different types of returns, etc. But at the same time, this would provide a tool for people to say, gee, this is somebody I’ve trusted or not trusted, or you know, it’s good or bad. We even offered to add as part of the overall review before we would let somebody onto our site, because first of all, we wouldn’t let anybody on our site evade any sec violations or FINRA violations or any any kind of regulatory violations. And we were going to review their materials, their disclosure materials, and give those a rating on our own is like, does this advisor provide discloses fees clearly for investors and give them a rating of one to five, and they still didn’t want? Didn’t go for it? So it would have been a great tool for investors. And we’re really disappointed. I mean,
Jason Hartman 13:57
does the SEC keep people from going on Yelp and rating their advisor?
Catherine McBreen 14:02
Exactly what that was what we tried to explain to them, and they said, The difference was that, you know, an advisor doesn’t pay to be on Yelp. And an advisor actually would pay to be in our service, because, you know, we’re promoting him or her not promoting this act of endorsing, but like, it’s almost it’s more, I guess, we’re providing these services for the advisor. So he’s paying us. So you in essence could go if you had an advisor across the street from you that you hated and competed against, you could go on Yelp and say bad things about him or her and none of that
Jason Hartman 14:28
happens. No question. People know,
Catherine McBreen 14:29
yeah, it comes on. But the reality is, that’s not you don’t know whether that’s true or not everything that we were doing was very, you know, driven by, you know, what’s going to be 100%, a client that isn’t validated and all that stuff.
Jason Hartman 14:42
Yeah, they’re kind of like Angie’s List. I mean, that’s what Angie’s List claims to do is that their actual clients, people can go and write a bunch of fake reviews. And Amazon has done that in the own recent years with the Amazon verified purchaser, which certainly the competitor could purchase the product on Amazon, then write a negative review about it. That’s not hard to do, especially if it’s a $20 item. It’s much different than taking half a million dollars and giving it to an advisor that you don’t like. It’s your competitor.
Catherine McBreen 15:08
We thought that they would like this because it’s really a highly regulated way to get feedback on these advisors as opposed to things like Yelp, but
Jason Hartman 15:16
apparently they weren’t ready for Well, that’s the SEC is in the dark ages. What can we say?
Catherine McBreen 15:20
As the government is right?
Jason Hartman 15:22
Well, I’ve heard it called the scoundrels encouragement Commission, the SEC. I like that acronym. It’s pretty cool. Good. Well, what are your thoughts on investment newsletters? I mean, there’s so many that’s such a big business, there are not advisors, just newsletter publishers, making millions and millions and 10s of millions of dollars a year, just publishing newsletters. What are your thoughts on that whole cottage industry? It’s not really cottage anymore, but
Catherine McBreen 15:50
well, personally, I think our investment websites the best personally, but an artist free. But what I would comment on is, I think that what we found so we do all this research with investors. And what we found that a lot of times is that the newsletters that you might get from your own advisor, or that you might get from somebody that you have an account with, whether it’s a big bank, or a big brokerage firm or whatever. Those types of newsletters are very appealing to investors. And we’ve, we’ve researched it. And the reason is, because one, one, sometimes they’re afraid that they’re being pushed to product. And if you read some of these newsletters, they are saying they’ll be give you a long, long explanation around why ETFs are interesting, and at the end telling you that you should invest in them and then saying, oh, by the way, come to us to buy them. So investors don’t really like that. But the other thing that they don’t like is the fact that they come home after work after a long day, whatever it is that they do. And most investors don’t want to read college level types of materials, when they come home, they want to read something that’s explained a little more clearly a little more light, a little more interesting. So a lot of these like really in depth investment newsletters are only appealing to people who are really, really into investing as opposed to those who are just kind of trying to keep abreast of what’s going on or learn interesting things. So
Jason Hartman 17:00
yeah, interesting thing. I wish all these advisors and newsletter writers just had to publish their results, you know, in the same exact format. And the same thing with people in real estate. I remember the founder of REMAX many years ago, Dave Lineker, he was trying to get a law put into a factor. And, you know, he, because he didn’t do it from a regulatory side. He wanted to do it just from a competitor side by issuing a challenge to his competitors, saying that I dare Coldwell Banker and the other companies to publish the number of sales their agents make every year. And of course, that doesn’t mean that the agent is good, just because they have a lot of business necessarily, but it’s an indicator, you know that the marketplace will figure them out. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than nothing, maybe. And I just wish with advisors and newsletter writers, there was a standardized format. And everyone had it had to be using this standardized format. And people could just go and look it up. And they don’t know,
Catherine McBreen 18:01
right? You’d like to compare apples to apples, because this industry has so many different kinds of fruit, I would be one way to say it, that it’s hard for them to understand what what they really should be looking at and why one thing seems to be important in one newsletter, whereas another one has a totally different spin.
Jason Hartman 18:15
Yeah, that was a pretty brief answer. Yeah. I mean, yes, it’s apples to apples. You’re right. There’s so many different kinds of fruit, great metaphor, but apples to apples, pears, pears, Bananas, bananas, it could be done right
Catherine McBreen 18:29
back. Yeah, the thing that people find interesting or that investors get frustrated with is, they don’t really understand what how different financial advisors are different from each other. And in their mind, they’re just going to somebody that they want to have helped them manage their money and do the best for them as a person. And then they find out they will, this advisor really is focused on selling you insurance products. And this advisor is really focused on selling you equities or whatever. And they really don’t, unless they go to like, go to financial planner, they don’t realize that they’re not going to get a financial plan, or their financial plan is going to be geared around doing specific things. So they really get confused about why are all these advisors different than Why can’t somebody just help me with all these things that I don’t understand. And we find research. So that’s one of the biggest challenges that that investors have. They want somebody who can answer all their questions. And that’s why there’s a lot of lack of trust. Yeah,
Jason Hartman 19:17
sure is no question about it. We’re talking about money here. And a good question to ask is, how much does it matter? People would be naive to say, it doesn’t matter it does in a modern non modern society, for sure. But how much does it matter? And what effect does it have on one’s overall happiness? What effect does it have on their marriage, you know, on their children, and how much is enough? is there is there a right number and I have some thoughts on this too. But I I want to ask yours first.
Catherine McBreen 19:46
Well, we did some research about a month ago, and I’m not going to be exactly specific about the percentages because I don’t have it in front of me. But we asked people overall the question says, Do you believe Money makes you happier? And if you have money has it made you happier and Those kinds of things to equate, you know, does money really make you happy? Because we always assume that money buys happiness? Well, of course, the people who had less money, believed that the more money you had, the more likely you were to be happy. And the people who were wealthy, were less likely to say that money bought you happiness. So, an overall when we ask people, what do you think how much money is rich? And you know, how much money do you have to have to be rich? Well, people really don’t think a million dollars is enough anymore. That’s not surprising. But as far as income levels, they think that if you if you make over $500,000 a year, then you’re then you’re rich.
Jason Hartman 20:36
And a lot of this a lot of this, Cathy depends on where one lives. I mean, because because the the major cost most people have is housing. And if you live in an expensive housing market, by the way, where are you located?
Catherine McBreen 20:50
We’re located in Lake Forest, Illinois, the suburb of Chicago. Yeah,
Jason Hartman 20:53
yeah. Not tremendously expensive. But you know, if you live in a tremendously expensive housing market, like a couple of areas in California or New York City, then you’ve got to just adjust those numbers so dramatically for that for that amount. But But you your survey said 500,000 a year and in net worth, did you have a number
Catherine McBreen 21:12
that was an income, that was income, and net worth people thought that if you had like $2 million, you were wealthy?
Jason Hartman 21:19
I that’s pretty interesting, because I’d say that’s probably pretty accurate. And the survey, I assume, was nationwide, and you had different markets. I remember reading an article in one of the financial magazines, and I’m guessing here the year, but I’ll just share it with you. They talked about can money buy happiness, and they found that there was a certain number that pretty much did the job. And, you know, I’m gonna just guess, Kathy, that that was way back in 1991. So it was a long time ago. But while you were talking, I just did a little inflation calculation. And the number they mentioned, that was the number that sort of bought happiness was $1.5 million net worth, which comes pretty close to your survey, because adjusted for the official rate of inflation, which of course, I think is understated, and you probably agree with me, but just based on official numbers, today is $2,490,000. So not far off. Oh,
Catherine McBreen 22:14
yeah. And even though people had too much money, we’re quick to say then that money doesn’t buy you happiness. Obviously, there are other things that make you happy, you know, it’s your family and your relationships and all that. Sure. But I think that it’s a lot easier for somebody who doesn’t have money to say if I had more money, I could be a lot happier. Right?
Jason Hartman 22:29
Right. Right. Right. But then you get those other people that don’t have it kind of dissing the whole subject saying, oh, it doesn’t buy happiness at all I like to say to them, is it it doesn’t buy happiness? It just buys more than poverty? Does? That’s all? It does. It sure does. Well, any closing thoughts? So the website is millionaire corner.com. And you know, any closing thoughts you have for us
Catherine McBreen 22:49
that really, we’d love people to come to our website, we’d love for them to send us emails, or comments about what we could do to make it better or more interesting, or even topics or ideas they’d like us to research because we research topics every month. So, you know, sometimes they can be as broad as, or as pithy as, you know, do million extra for dogs or cats, or hopefully, more than things a little more in depth than that. Right. Fantastic. Oh, and you know, Kathy, I forgot to ask you about one more thing, real estate, you said a lot of people were coming to your site asking about real estate reading real estate investing articles nowadays. Just quickly, what are your thoughts there? Well, we have found even throughout the economic crisis that real estate was is an incredible investment that people have been interested in. And when we ask people what they want to invest in, people will say I want to invest in alternative investments. But when we ask normal people, what’s an alternative investment to them? It’s real estate. And even people in California, which, you know, at the height of the recession, we did focus with their, we’re interested in investing in real estate. And that’s such a, you know, up and down market and places like that. But yeah, we find that that’s something that people have continued to be interested in. And since the recession, we find more interest in the fact that people feel like, even though they’ve seen their home values gone down or seen real estate values go down. They feel like it’s a more stable asset and the fact that they have it, why don’t they own it. The other thing that we’ve done is that we did a book or a few years earlier, and one of the things that we found in households ahead, what we call perpetual wealth, meaningful generational wealth that they passed on, was they invested in income producing real estate, they weren’t people that invested in your house and fixed it up and flipped it. It was people who would buy you know, income properties, whether their apartment buildings or commercial rental facilities, where they would eventually pass this on to their children and grandchildren and thereby had an income stream that they were passing on that kept their families pretty well protected going forward.
Jason Hartman 24:43
Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. Kathy, you know, I, I like to say whenever I do a seminar talk about this topic that I’ve seen the various real estate clients I’ve had over many, many years. The people who do the flipping and the buy and the sell, they have spending money, but the people who do the buy And hold of income properties over the long term they have real wealth couldn’t couldn’t agree with you more I’d rather have real wealth and spending money any day, although spending money is okay. But yeah, real wealth is much better. And for my money, I just like housing, whether it be apartments or single family, everybody needs a place to live at the end of the day. That’s good point. And you do make the distinction between income producing real estate and one’s own home. And Robert Kiyosaki does that very well saying, you know, your home is a liability. If you have to spend money to own it, it’s a liability. So income producing real estate is the way to go.
Catherine McBreen 25:32
Yeah, we take on we do net worth calculations, we take the value of your home, your home out of that, because, like, like you said, that’s just something that it can be a liability to you and it’s not really, you know, pirates, something that you can rely upon if you need it.
Jason Hartman 25:46
It’s true. And you know, I got to just mention one more point on that, I saw something interesting today, one of my friends whose house hunting, posted this gorgeous home on her Facebook page today. And it’s in north Scottsdale, Arizona, and it was $2.4 million. And you get a lot for that out here. Okay, not as much in Newport Beach, where I’m from. But what’s interesting about it is the posting said it was 2.4 million to buy, or you could rent it for just 50 $300 a month. So I mean, that is a phenomenal deal. As a renter, we’ve all got to live somewhere. So when you think of real estate investing, think of if you can afford a high end property, it’s almost always better to rent the high end property and own a lot of low end income properties, you rent to other people, because the ratios are so much more favorable to the renter in the high end property case, or to the owner in the low end property case. So yeah, great, great, great Nelson,
Catherine McBreen 26:46
we met a lot of people at that, at the height of the recession that we were doing interviews with, and they would tell us things like, you know, they may have had a beautiful mansion, that they decided to stop paying the mortgage, because there was one down the street that they could that was better than theirs that they could pay cash for. And, you know, just walk away from the one that one that they had, because they were able to upgrade to something that had fallen so much in value that these people have enough money that they don’t have to worry about their credit rating and, and not being able to get another mortgage in the future, that kind of thing.
Jason Hartman 27:17
Right? Right. Right. And what’s interesting about that, that that’s what we call strategic default, and millions of people have done it, and millions are still doing it, maybe not millions anymore. It’s probably less than now. But lots of people do it. And you can make your own morality decisions on it. But from a from a strictly financial point of view. What you didn’t mention there, as many of those people lived in that house that they stopped paying on for a year or two years. If they were in Florida, maybe three years and live there for free and then bought the place down the street
Catherine McBreen 27:46
morality decision. I see my grandparents flipping over in a great
Jason Hartman 27:49
yeah, I know the old school would definitely not go for it. But you know, if you think about it, the contract says, Look, if you don’t pay, you give up the collateral, and they’ve given up the collateral as long as they didn’t destroy it, or do anything evil. That is the business deal they’ve made with a lender and they’re obviously going to give up their credit rating too. So those are the consequences, but very interesting stuff. Kathy, thank you for joining us today. And again, the website is millionaire corner.com and your studies are very interesting. Glad to have you on the show.
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