Jason Hartman welcomes registered financial consultant and mortgage professional, Randy, on this Flashback Friday episode. Randy compared the current lending process to what it was before and the unintended consequences that the changes caused.
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This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts visit Hartman media.com. Welcome to the flashback Friday edition of the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. As he rapidly approaches 1000 episodes of this podcast, he has hand picked individual episodes that he feels is going to be good review for you to prepare you for the future by listening to the past. Let’s dive in.
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Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants Get involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it. And now here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.
Jason Hartman 1:19
This is your host Jason Hartman. Thanks for joining me today we are going to talk about mortgage financing. Today we’re going to talk about four different areas of mortgages here in just a moment. Couple very quick announcements. Number one join us for IRA investing seminar again, you know, the laws have changed and there’s a good new opportunity going on with Roth IRA conversions and investing in real estate with your IRA right now, that event is a free event, and a luncheon will be provided. It’s Wednesday, December 9 here at our office in Costa Mesa, California. 11:30am sharp ending at 1pm. It’s going to be a very quick presentation because of the lunch hour also. creating wealth boot camp on January 23. And the Masters weekend on March 6, and seventh in there, we’re talking about 2010. If you want tax write offs for this year, buy your properties. Now you’ve only got a little time left you got to be able to close by the end of the year. So be quick about it. Business is booming. And a lot of our areas right now we have high high activity, and we are finding it a little bit tough to get inventory properties when they’re going up on our website. They’re selling very quickly, so be sure to talk with one of our investment counselors here at Empowered Investor investor network about that. Also, I want to make sure we haven’t talked about it much lately, folks, but you have got to subscribe to the Financial Freedom Report. That is our newsletter. I’m holding the new edition in front of me now. It’s 20 pages long. And I tell you, there’s some phenomenal information in here so you can subscribe it’s only $197 a year via email 297 a year via print and go to Jason hartman.com and go to Store and even the world’s cutest dog, my dog puppy. He writes a column in there a lot of the time. So you’ll really enjoy that there’s a fantastic flowchart by the way on the front page that talks about paying the man and it talks about the financial situation we’re in now and which way it may lead, whether we’re going to see inflation, deflation, price stability, monetary tightening, monetary loosening, and how that affects your investments in income property, stocks, bonds, savings, whatever else. So the newsletter the financial freedom report is awesome. I have not mentioned it much lately. Be sure you subscribe, you need to get yourself a copy of that and get a regular subscription if I don’t talk to you before but I think I will want to wish you all a very happy thanksgiving for all of our American listeners. And let’s go to the interview now with Randy you’ve heard him on the show before and we’re going to talk about four important aspects of mortgage financing. Our next Show we have Nancy talking about internet marketing. And then after that we have Mike monger politician from South Carolina former gubernatorial candidate and I think you’ll really like his show very interesting. So we’re going to keep talking about how you can gain financial freedom through solopreneur ship businesses, very small micro businesses being a micro printer, as we call it, and having home based internet marketing type businesses and America’s most historically proven investment and that of course, is income property. So that’s what the creating wealth show is all about creating income and creating wealth. So let’s listen in let’s talk about mortgages today and here’s the interview with Randy. Remember, you’re listening to flashback Friday. Our new episodes are published every Monday and Wednesday.
You’ve heard him on the show before it’s my pleasure to welcome back are mortgage expert Randy lukey. Randy welcome.
Randy 4:57
Thanks, Jason. Glad to be here. Tell
Jason Hartman 4:58
us what is the 10 pitcher of the lending market today things are still crazy out there. They still
Randy 5:04
are, if you recall back a year ago when the idea was that the banks were too big to fail, and the government had to step in and do this bailout money. What’s interesting is to fast forward to today and realize that they’ve now created what two, three or four really big banks that really can’t fail. I think that’s a good place to start from. And inside that what I’m seeing on a day to day basis is everything is as strict as it’s ever been, if not more so than ever. And we have literally no flexibility or latitude in terms of varying from the guidelines whatsoever.
Jason Hartman 5:34
So the guidelines are strict. Are they overcorrecting? Randy, are they too strict? I mean, they were too loosey goosey before for sure. The answer is that the
Randy 5:43
guidelines are not any different than they were say back in the late 80s. The the differences that there’s no variation from the guidelines. So if we have, for example, a 50% debt to income ratio, and that’s the maximum, that’s the maximum and it can’t be one penny over. It won’t happen, what’s
Jason Hartman 5:58
going on in the world of this disclosures when it comes to lending?
Randy 6:02
Well, that’s another big change that’s happened recently. And as people that are buying properties are going to be mostly affected by it, it’s really a timing thing. And the idea is this that when you take a loan application with us, we have a certain amount of days before we need to send out the initial disclosures. Just tell you what the interest rate is, in the terms the various costs and fees associated with the loan. That’s the Truth in Lending disclosure, the Truth in Lending disclosure and the good faith estimate. All right, closing costs, okay. So in the past, what we were able to do is meet with a borrower take their loan application, and we were in agreement with the terms at the at that initial meeting, we’d be able to go right ahead, order their credit report, order their appraisal and get the ball rolling. Well, what’s happened recently is they put a stop to that we’re now we have to actually wait four business days before we’re able to order an appraisal on the property and if there’s any significant changes any material changes, which by the way means if the interest rate on the APR, the annual percentage rate changes, as little as an eighth of percent. We have to read disclose again and as soon as you To be able to sign loan documents would be seven business days after that. But
Jason Hartman 7:03
that wouldn’t be that much of a problem usually because the loan needs to be processed but in the front of the transaction, what goes on? Because you said you have to wait four days to order the appraisal. That’s what’s the big deal? What’s the rationale there? I don’t get
Randy 7:17
the will. The rationale is when we order appraisals nowadays, we are going to collect a fee from the borrower to pay for the appraisal. Oh,
Jason Hartman 7:23
so what you’re saying is that they don’t want you charging the fee until they’ve been disclosed the term That’s right. So if a borrower’s is shopping, then they can talk to three different people get three different good fates before paying for an appraisal before paying for Okay, okay, that’s not that big a deal.
Randy 7:40
Well, the big deal you mentioned that it’s not a closing because of the processing time but the truth of the matter is we used to work with our borrowers, you could literally wait till you’re ready to draw loan documents to choose what points and fee structure you wanted to have with your loan or or choose which loan program you wanted to go with 15 year 30 or whatever. Not anymore is if they make a change to that loan. program that affects the APR. It’s a seven day wait before we can get the loan documents out to close escrow.
Jason Hartman 8:05
Oh, that is a big deal this I take back what I said that because what you’re saying is that it makes it hard for the buyer to switch products. Yes, during the purchase transaction. So here again, I would assume that the government in all their infinite stupidity is trying to help the consumer. And they may actually, in some cases be hurting the consumer. No, I think they are, I think you are Which one? I think they’re doing what you said in the latter, you’re doing exactly what you say government wants to come and protect the consumer, right? They don’t want consumers to get locked down to pay upfront fees, which makes sense. But in in the process of doing this. There’s a lot of unintended consequences. Now they’re going to cause delays to escrow when the borrower for legitimate reasons would like to change loan programs or pay more or less points on a loan. And you can see that sometimes as you’ve dealt with hundreds of times over the many years you’ve been in business, sometimes the rate is going to change and maybe you’re in a market where the rates are trending up and the buyer wants to switch horses do this different program a new program came available and you can’t switch them without violating the rules.
Randy 9:08
Yeah, well you can’t violate the rules we have to wait seven days if the violate gonna happen yeah, well
Jason Hartman 9:14
yeah, I mean not that you would violate the rules but you can’t can’t switch them. Yeah, wow. Okay, there we go again, government and all their wisdom.
Randy 9:21
Another thing this to bring up is appraisals. You know, in the past, of course, we had relationships with appraisers in local market
Jason Hartman 9:27
and now it’s appraisal management companies
Randy 9:29
now it’s appraisal management companies and this
Jason Hartman 9:31
is a really a seismic shift in the industry, I think and I’ve read a lot about it and you can see the rationale behind it. Absolutely. They don’t want you guys influencing the appraiser right? They don’t want the realtor influencing the appraiser. They don’t want the lender influencing the appraiser there were too many abuses there. Right.
Randy 9:47
Well, you know, I don’t know how many abuses there were but certainly there were abuses. Right right. And that’s the issue. I mean, we may be strong arm an appraiser to give us a value but if you flip flop it and go to where we are today. Now, the way they choose an Fraser is from the appraisal management companies who have a pool of appraisers that are, you know, licensed appraisers and they’re they’re qualified
Jason Hartman 10:07
but it’s a blind pool. It’s so you don’t know which appraiser will be going to that property
Randy 10:12
right, which I don’t have a problem with that what I do have a problem with is the way they actually choose the appraisal. And it’s like a reverse eBay.
Jason Hartman 10:19
Okay, meaning Oh, it’s an auction. It’s a reverse auction.
Randy 10:21
Yeah. Tell us how that works. Well, basically, if the appraisal fees, say $500, and I’m an appraiser, I’m willing to do it for four, and the next guy willing to do it for 350. And the next guy’s willing to do it for three and so on and so forth. You see where I’m going with this. What you end up with is potentially the person who is the least qualified to do the appraisal, the lowest bidder, the lowest bidder, the least busy, the least need the least valuable and not necessarily requirement that they even be familiar with that particular market.
Jason Hartman 10:48
But that reverse auction scenario isn’t legislated. Right, that can’t be legislated that way. That’s just the way these plays on management companies. They’re becoming like the lending tree for appraisers.
Randy 11:00
Well, right between the class, the appraisal and what they can actually get a bid out for,
Jason Hartman 11:04
let me just explain if I may, I’m sure you want to add to this, what happened here? So back in the day, in the old days, which is only 810 months ago, a year ago, the old days, what would happen is appraisers would develop relationships with lenders with mortgage brokers with Mortgage Bankers, and they would come in to the office and they would call on them and schmooze them for business, if you will, and maybe bring them a bottle of wine or some cookies or bagels or whatever. You never got that. Okay. Well, you know, I know appraisers that did that, you know, they would these mortgage companies were giving them business. And so their interest was to their client, ostensibly was not the borrower. It was the mortgage company. Okay, so this is just how it worked. I’m just explaining how they would schmooze the mortgage company to get business. And then when there was an appraisal that would come up here and there where it was hard to bring in the value, the mortgage company might, in some cases, exert some pressure on the appraiser say, hey, you gotta bring this in so I can get my deal closed and what would happen there is the value would be artificially high. That was the abuse.
Randy 12:07
That was the abuse. But if you think of it again, once the appraisal goes from the lender to the underwriters desk, the underwriters is supposed to review that appraisal. And so the underwriter is looking at the values comparing the comparable sales and essentially doing another review without actually going to the field to see the home. So there was a checks and balance system there
Jason Hartman 12:28
there was But was there always a review appraiser or I mean, there was always an underwriter, but some appraisals had appraisal review and some didn’t, right. In the old days, a formal
Randy 12:37
review is done by an appraiser. But all appraisals were reviewed by underwriters, right to look for the variances in the product. But
Jason Hartman 12:44
again, just to kind of do a little history here. Those underwriters work for the mortgage companies, so they weren’t under pressure to get loans done. They were under pressure to do as many files as possible. So the quality goes down when the pressure goes up, right? Yeah, potentially. But that reverse auction thing is terrible. That’s awful.
Randy 13:00
So now we’ve got a system where we’re basically getting the least qualified, least busy phrases. And I don’t mean by the way to disparage any appraisers listening to this podcast,
Jason Hartman 13:08
especially the lowest bidder. Or except the lowest bidder.
Randy 13:12
But it only makes sense. Yeah, that’s the person that’s going to be available. And that’s and that’s an issue right? That’s an issue. I think appraisals running think I know because I’ve been through these market cycles before. Where it’s really going to become difficult is as we start going through the transition, meaning as home values stop declining and start going back up again, it’s going to be a problem because it was easy Of course when home values were continuing to go up and then use bought for something for last because you had a higher comparable, but when you go the transition from the other direction, we’re now houses selling for 2030 $40,000. More than the previous home appraisers got to know his stuff to be able to justify why somebody is willing to pay that in any given market.
Jason Hartman 13:49
Just a reminder, you’re listening to flashback Friday. Our new episodes are published every Monday and every Wednesday. So is there a call potentially the market in the bubble markets that are collapsing and most of them have pretty much collapsed. Now there’s maybe only a little bit more to see come down. I think in some of these markets, they’re not quite at the bottom, but they’re getting close. Is that causing the market to decline faster? Potentially, it seems like that dynamic could be occurring.
Randy 14:19
It could it depends on how many short sales and foreclosures you’re going to have in the market. The way the appraiser looks at it is let’s just take a given neighborhood and in a given neighborhood say that there’s 10 sales in that in that particular neighborhood, if one of those sales as a short sale or one of those sales is a foreclosure they’re told to ignore it, they have to list it they have to show it as a comparable but they’ll make note that this was a short sale or
Jason Hartman 14:41
an artificially low sale potentially potentially. And by the way, we should also Randy and you and I both know this say to the listeners, just because it’s a foreclosure or a short sale doesn’t mean it’s a good deal. Yeah, you know, I you know, haven’t you seen foreclosures and short sales that went above the comps that were really overvalued And sometimes, you know, because they’re a bit up and there’s multiple out, you know, some of these folks, you just need to work with a person with experience, right?
Randy 15:07
That’s the bottom line. When you’re out there in the market, you definitely don’t want to be overpaying. And it’s easy to get caught up in that because a lot of listing agents are taking homes that are Oreos, purposely advertising that a price that they know is way below what it will actually sell for, and then getting buyers to bid them up.
Jason Hartman 15:21
Yeah, so sometimes that auction scenario actually makes it overvalued. Correct. But then again, sometimes an auction can be a good deal. It depends this stuff, there’s no hard and fast rules about a lot of it. It just depends
Randy 15:33
on you know your market.
Jason Hartman 15:34
Yeah, know your market and have a professional that’s experienced that’s gonna help you
Randy 15:37
you know, the last thing I wanted to say about the current lending environment, and we’ve talked about this before, too, as a prospective buyer, being pre approved is more important than ever. Well, let’s kind of go back on this idea of short sales and foreclosures right now. Most lenders won’t even accept an offer unless you have a bonafide pre approval, not just an opinion letter from somebody that says, hey, I think this guy’s qualified but they They want to have verify the income, verified the assets, verified the credit and actually have a bonafide approval from one of the automated underwriting systems. A pre approval is very important nowadays.
Jason Hartman 16:09
Yeah, I totally agree with you. How long does the pre approval take? Because these aren’t the instant pre approvals that are like written on a piece of letterhead that’s worth the paper it’s written on maybe that just says, Hey, this guy is probably going to qualify for a loan. This is a formal approval form approval. How long does that take?
Randy 16:24
The answer is that the process itself can take an hour, but it depends on the board.
Jason Hartman 16:29
Can you verify income in an hour? Well,
Randy 16:31
that said depends on the borrower providing us with the income and asset documentation. So if we meet with a borrower, they show up with a W two, they show up with the tax returns to show up with the pay stubs and bank statements. Now we can verify that put accurate data in the system and within an hour, you can have a formal approval.
Jason Hartman 16:46
All right, good. So basically, when you talk about the temperature of the lending market today, there’s sort of three pillars there. There’s disclosures, appraisals, and pre approvals, all very important for people to understand and
Randy 16:58
one more, maybe data Which is, you know, strict adherence to guidelines. Don’t expect, right? Don’t expect favors, don’t expect, you know, variations on what is offered,
Jason Hartman 17:07
right? Maybe that goes into the pre approval category. But talk to us just for a moment about credit scores, if you would, Randy, because what I see happening out there is millions and millions, maybe 10s of millions, maybe even more than that of people having their credit damaged. And I see people that are strategically hurting their credit by defaulting intentionally on loans to get loan modifications or just not to pay I’m hearing stories all the time of people sitting in their houses haven’t paid for a long time and the lender hasn’t even filed the notice of default. Yeah, it’s like a free ride. It just irks me to no end credits getting pretty important, isn’t it?
Randy 17:43
You know, I’ve always felt that credit is like the cornerstone for this whole process.
Jason Hartman 17:48
Credit Score. Yeah, sure.
Randy 17:50
Credit Score. Exactly. In fact, I guess Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac agreed with me about a year ago when they started doing credit pricing based on credit scores. So depending on the The loan devalue the amount of money you’re borrowing versus the value of the property and your credit score, you may end up paying two or three points more for the same rate that somebody would have if they had good credit percentage
Jason Hartman 18:11
points on interest or points in loan fees on loan fees.
Randy 18:14
Okay, so on a $200,000 loan, you could pay $4,000 more than the guy sitting next to you same loan, same loan devalues same property, but because you didn’t have a good credit score and the other person did you paid $4,000 more in fees,
Jason Hartman 18:26
like in that example, and I know this just off the top of your head, but what’s the difference in the credit score, like the the a level credit is 720? And above still, right, some 4745
Randy 18:37
criteria 760 and above?
Jason Hartman 18:39
Whoa, that’s a really stellar credit. I remember during the subprime debacle, you could just tell it was a bubble waiting to burst. They were making loans to people with credit scores like at 500. I mean, maybe even lower. I don’t know what’s the lowest FICO score a person can get a loan with nowadays. Yeah, and maybe you’re not speaking for all lenders. Just your bank? I’m not sure
Randy 18:59
yeah. limit, let me just say in general that if you have a score below 680, it’s going to be difficult. If you have a score below 580, that probably be impossible. Unless you get an FHA loan, then what happens? Then there’s no there’s no minimum credit score, do you do FHA loans, we do FHA. Okay. And you can have literally a zero credit score, you could have no credit, and we’ll still give you an FHA loan.
Jason Hartman 19:20
Can you tell us about that?
Randy 19:22
Well, I mean, why Why? It’s just the policy, FHA is insuring the loans right, the government’s insuring the loan. So this is this is kind of the irony of it again, with with FHA, do
Jason Hartman 19:31
you just go through this whole problem?
Randy 19:35
Again, it’s like
Jason Hartman 19:36
Haven’t we learned anything? This is so recent, it’s not like ancient history. They’re never the same
Randy 19:41
level. Eight, nine years ago, crazy and we’ll go through it again. 10 years from today, we’ll probably sit down in front of whatever we’re doing 10 years from today and interview the same thing people forget memories are short. So yeah, FHA with FHA program, you don’t have to have any minimum credit score and we can still make the financing even with as little Three and a half percent down payment. Wow.
Jason Hartman 20:02
Yeah so it seems like we had the subprime problem it was time to tighten up on qualifying criteria get good at qualifying people that the borrower well, and in some cases they’re just throwing gasoline on the fire
Randy 20:15
but in the irony is we need to have stated income loans again for for a variety of reasons not just make up income per se but there’s a lot of people that have income that just doesn’t show up on their tax returns yet and they’re drug dealers,
Jason Hartman 20:27
money launderers mafia. No, I’m kidding. I’m not kidding, actually. But that’s not the only person tell us about the real legitimate case. When that happens if you went
Randy 20:37
well, let’s talk about a senior citizen, for example, somebody that is withdrawing money from say a life insurance policy and they’re taking cash that they put into these life insurance policies and let that money grow on compound now when they take it out. That money comes to them because it’s alone. Guess what? income tax free is not reported on their income tax return in your seminars. You talk about refi to die right and the strategy with refund It dies, you can take out $150,000 of equity and not pay taxes on that money. Well, that money’s not reported as income, but it certainly is legitimate income and it’s available to, to the homeowner spent, but we can’t use it to qualify you for
Jason Hartman 21:12
Well, yeah, you know, that’s that’s very true. That’s that that makes a lot of sense. Definitely a challenge there. Okay. So what’s going on in the world of rates nowadays? And what’s your prediction for the future?
Randy 21:22
Now, this is a really good topic. I did this in research for our call today, because I want to say a couple things. First of all, I have a chart here that we’re going to look at, and I’ll talk through that so the listeners can kind of visualize what we’re what we’re seeing. But if you look at the chart, the the colored blue one I gave you, Jason, this is a chart that shows the history of the long term US government securities. So we’re talking 30 year treasury bonds, essentially. And this chart, interestingly enough, goes back 217 years, so it’s a big sample. Now, you notice I drew some lines on there, as we look across this graph that the rate of 3% and 5% you see the two lines that go across the three to 5%. Mm hmm. Well, those lines represent In the interest rates, and those, those treasury bonds represent the what the rates were about 80% of the time across 217 years. So let me say that again, out of a 217 year sample, the 30 year treasury bond ran between a range of three and 5% 80% of those years. Now, if you go up to 8%. In other words, from three to 8% range, now we have 90%, the range of 90% of the years are going to fall into that three to 8% range. So now I looked yesterday to see what the 30 year treasury bond was yesterday and the interest rate, this is a tober 28th. Okay, so October 27, the rate was 4.29%. Okay, so what I’m pointing out here is if you look back in a big picture, right now, we’re at 4.29%. We’re within that 80% range of treasury bonds. What’s really interesting if you look to the, to the very end of the graph, and look to the area that starts at kind of about 1951 and then goes all the way to about 2000 In one candidate, big spike in interest rates her Yeah. Okay. So this is what we remember in terms of interest rates, we remember this hyperinflation or very high, high rate of inflation, which is
Jason Hartman 23:11
nothing compared to what other countries have experienced. That’s right.
Randy 23:14
Yeah. Which is another piece of this pie. If you look at this, we’ve had a very stable interest rate environment for 200 year history. So the question would be what happened in 1951, that started this upward increase in interest rates. And just you know, just what would your perspective?
Jason Hartman 23:29
Well, quite a few things. I mean, America really only the Industrial Revolution for quite a while we started really abusing monetary policy with the Federal Reserve taxes increased. And then in 71, we went off the gold standard. So that was the period where and then you look at the 70s. That was a disaster.
Randy 23:47
That’s where we have the hugest spike, right? Yeah. So So basically, what I’m what I’m showing here is going back into the 50s, which is right after World War Two, the the basically the idea of Cold War, the locking up of trade, that the idea that we weren’t trading With the the world. And the reason I went
Jason Hartman 24:02
well, yeah, I forgot to mention globalization left out a minor thing here.
Randy 24:07
The point being, we have to make everybody aware of the same idea that could happen again, right? He’s talking about protectionism, people are talking about trade markets and you know, holding prices and doing that, you can see what happens when you shut down global markets, then all of a sudden the cost of the goods and services in your local market get jacked up, because there’s no other places to supply them.
Jason Hartman 24:28
Okay. But what also happens is employment or employment gets better because Americans have jobs because they’re outsourced to China.
Randy 24:36
Well, okay, so brains have jobs, right? But then and then they’re going to still not have a fair and level playing field and competition for prices and services, which will drive up the costs of everything. Okay, so what are you advocating? Well, what I’m advocating is this if you hear people, especially politicians talking about the idea of shutting down markets near protectionism is something that you really need to stay away from. We need to have open markets, we need to have free markets. where people can trade globally? Right? Right. That’s that’s what I’m having. Yeah, no one else is real interesting. We’ll get off this chart. If you look at 911, the last little number on there 911, we were still interest rates that were about the same as they were in 1979. And you can see right after 911 is where all the interest rates crash
Jason Hartman 25:16
or separate is declining. Sure,
Randy 25:18
yeah, a precipitous decline. So with that, let’s switch to this other chart. And this is a much more narrow look at interest rates, but still going back two years. Okay. So what I wanted to do is get a sense of what’s really gone on over the last two years. So I’m going to start with again today, and this is a broad base, but this is what the interest rates would be for an owner occupied 30 year fixed rate loan.
Jason Hartman 25:40
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Announcer 26:52
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Jason Hartman 27:30
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