ANNOUNCER 1: Welcome to Creating Wealth with Jason Hartman! During this program, Jason is going to tell you some really exciting things that you probably haven’t thought of before and a new slant on investing. Fresh new approaches to America’s best investment that will enable you to create more wealth and happiness than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self-made multimillionaire who not only talks the talk but walks the walk. He’s been a successful investor for 20 years and currently owns properties in 11 states and 17 cities. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to financial freedom. You really can do it! And now, here’s your host, Jason Hartman, with the complete solution for real estate investors.
JASON HARTMAN: Hey, welcome to The Creating Wealth show. This is your host, Jason Hartman, and this is episode #328. Our guest today will be Senator Byron Dorgan and he has some interesting things to share, not the least of which is his new book but also some discussion on the very famous Edward Snowden and alternative energy and that whole bunch of other issues with what’s going in the Congress, in the economy, etc. So, I think you’ll like that when Senator Byron Dorgan joins us here in just a bit but first, Steve is here with me to help with the intro. We’re gonna talk about a few current events and properties. Steve, how you are doing?
STEVE: Doing well and ready to see what the senator has to say about Snowden and alternative energy and all that fun stuff. I have a feeling I will disagree with him a little bit.
JASON HARTMAN: Well, you may just do that and I kinda did too a little bit. But I like what he has to say on the whole and by the time this is published, something hopefully, will change with Snowden because it seems to be really in limbo for such a big story and such a big deal.
STEVE: Yeah, yeah.
JASON HARTMAN: It’s not moving very quickly but, yeah. Yeah, well, let’s jump into it. That’s one of the things we wanted to talk about today, but you’ve got like three things on the agenda you wanted to talk about. Where shall we go first?
STEVE: Well, we can start with Snowden because—
JASON HARTMAN: Okay.
STEVE: My understanding is he’s basically been a nomad in the Moscow Airport.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, he has and one of the articles I read, it was really interesting. It said, if Edward Snowden wants to understand what it’s like in prison, he’s pretty close now in the—
STEVE: [LAUGHING]
JASON HARTMAN: In the transit zone of this hotel where there are cameras and you cannot get to any hotel facilities and everything is super expensive. He’s basically trapped in this room. I mean, it sounds pretty bad and there’s a sign there that says, if you’d like to experience all of the benefits our hotel offers and its amenities, please have your visa next time you come to Russia [LAUGHING].
STEVE: [LAUGHING]
JASON HARTMAN: There’s a big sign there. So, anyway, but yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, is Snowden a hero or a criminal? What are your thoughts, Steve?
STEVE: Well, I’m gonna say he is a criminal, you know? I—
JASON HARTMAN: No, really? I’m sort of surprised with your libertarian bent that you would actually say that.
STEVE: Yeah. Well, I do like rule of law to a degree and, you know, he has some disagreements. I don’t know everything on this, of course. Snowden, I’m sure, has a lot to say and would be a very interesting interview but knowing what I do now, which is limited, that there’s gotta be better ways to air your grievances unless, of course, he exhausted all of those but, you know, I value the nation’s security a lot and just taking off and spilling the beans and who knows what else he’s gonna do, you know. I’d like to see them bring him back.
JASON HARTMAN: I’m sort of wondering though, now the senator believes and he knows better than either of us for sure, but he believes there are a lot of national security secrets that Snowden has and either may have shared or may share in the future or someone may just force him. I guess he’s got a couple of laptops full of data with him and, I mean, those can fall into the wrong hands, right? He’s in a foreign country, well he is in no country right now, technically in this transit zone in Russia, but the Russian government could probably get a hold of those and break the encryption. They’re probably encrypted no doubt, you know, or somehow get him to give up the passwords, but I don’t know. So far, I haven’t heard anything conclusive that there’s anything national security-wise in there. I think it’s more the security of the people and that’s where I kinda lean more. I’m not one side or the other on this because I just don’t know, but I kinda lean more on the side of the guy might be kind of a hero. I’m kind of surprised we’re disagreeing on this actually, Steve.
STEVE: Yeah. Well, he could be defined by US Law as a criminal but be regarded as a hero [LAUGHING] and we’ll see how it plays out. I think though what, regardless of what you think about the guy, the best place for him, the most optimistic view of his future is probably within an American federal prison because if he tries to go get asylum somewhere or he ends up in prison somewhere else, somebody’s gonna get it. He wants to be on US soil where there’s US rule of law. If he’s outside of it, that isn’t there and he has some very powerful enemies at this point.
JASON HARTMAN: Well, yeah. I mean, Ron Paul even said that he feared that Snowden might become the victim of a drone attack now that Obama likes to execute people without a trial with drones.
STEVE: That’s some pretty thick irony.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, it really is but, yeah, I don’t know. We’ll see. It’s a crazy story, but all I know is that I’m glad it came out that the NSA was doing this to us and I tell you, I consider myself to be a pretty patriotic person and given that we have got our Independence Day here, just [LAUGHING]—I guess, we’re technically recording right before the 4th of July but given my trip to Europe, this will probably be published shortly after the 4th of July, so [LAUGHING] just a time frame for people. But I consider myself, you know, a very patriotic person, but I gotta tell you, I’m losing faith in, you know, America, but, I mean, it just seems like this country is becoming uglier and uglier as time goes on and the scandals break and—I don’t know. I almost hate to say that, I really do, because I love the founding of America. I mean deeply, I love the principles on which the country was founded and it just seems like we’ve moved so far afield of that, that the founding fathers would obviously be rolling over in their graves right now if they knew what was going on.
STEVE: It does feel like nobody really cares about big issues anymore. Most people, if their iPhone is working and they’ve got running water, then politicians and the Fed can just continue to do what they’re doing to the country. You know, I’ve mentioned it on the show before. On my front porch, I can see the new NSA Data Center being built where they’re gonna be storing apparently everything under the sun. So, it does really put some fear into you because people can say, “Oh, you’re just a fear monger.” You’re getting everybody amped up about this but, you know, I just, something in me, I don’t like to see the government getting a lot of power because what happens when a crazy person is in power and he has the power. I mean, I think that it’s better and I think that’s, like you say, you love the founding. That’s why they had separation of powers. They had divided government, so that someone couldn’t get too powerful. That’s what’s they came here for. That’s what they ran away from and it seems like we’re going back to it.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, it really does and Obama is just abusing the executive branch. It’s really a ridiculous deal. I mean, it really is. It’s interesting because George Orwell in his book, 1984, he obviously predicted all of these kind of stuff, if you will, if you call it a prediction about this dystopian future, but also when you look at Brave New World—you know, you mentioned as long as everybody has got their smart phone and their running water, that’s always been known as bread and circuses. I was gonna add to that the latest reality show and it’s kinda like there’s this dual strategy going on where you’ve got this Orwellian stuff happening, but then you’ve also got this Brave New World-type stuff going on where people are just becoming so apathetic because they’ve all sort of got their basic needs met and you know, we’ve got the food stamp president that is doling out the favors and dumbing people down and when people get comfortable enough, they won’t go out and go to a rally and you know, a demonstration and bother to write a letter to their congressman if that does any good anyway, but we’re living in pretty interesting times as the old Chinese saying goes. This is not a normal era in which we are leaving nowadays, in my opinion.
STEVE: There’s—yeah, it can’t continue to go like this and you’re branded as somebody who’s just a paranoid freak for saying that, but it can’t continue. It’s not sustainable and we don’t know how it will ultimately end, but people don’t care. You’ve seen that cartoon circulating around on the internet. I don’t know if it is a cartoon, but it might be a little bit of write-up, it shows a picture of one the national parks here in the US. It says, don’t feed the bears. I think it’s Yellowstone, but don’t feed the bears because they might not be able to feed themselves afterwards. They grow dependent.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah [LAUGHING].
STEVE: And then it—side by side – it shows one of the ads for here’s how you get food stamps [LAUGHING]. So, it said, you know, don’t feed the bears. We don’t want them [LAUGHING] becoming unable to feed themselves but hey, a couple hundred million people, that’s not a problem.
JASON HARTMAN: It’s interesting that you mentioned that example and it’s very telling and it’s obviously true and a very good comparison, but Hugo Chavez, the late Hugo Chavez in Venezuela—
STEVE: Rest his soul.
JASON HARTMAN: He—yeah, rest his soul [LAUGHING].
STEVE: [LAUGHING]
JASON HARTMAN: The dictator Chavez, he is actually very well-liked in Venezuela, especially among the lower classes because he just doled out benefits and that’s exactly how you give people that comfort, and just give them stuff and they’ll become apathetic. Don’t feed the bears, you got it, so.
STEVE: Yeah, yeah. Well, I—we did a show a little while back. I told you I had to wear the pirate eye patch.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah—oh, yeah. Did you take the patch off?
STEVE: Yeah, it’s off. I’m all healed, but I’ve had to go a couple of days in the road to the doctor and you were talking about how when somebody messes with your eye, you kinda want to punch him in the face [LAUGHING].
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah [LAUGHING]. You can’t help it. It’s a reflex.
STEVE: It is, but so—I mean, they put this numbing agent all in my eye and so, I can cooperate and they do what they need do and it’s—all these benefits are just a numbing agent. People will ignore these things that if they were having to go out and work and produce, that they would never stand for them in a million years, but the numbing agent has got them under the ether, so to speak.
JASON HARTMAN: It sure does, it sure does. Well, hey, let’s talk about the Texas home market and how homebuilders are, they’re ramping up the machine big time in the Lone Star State, aren’t they?
STEVE: They are, they are, and I’m sure the listeners want to hear about it. They’re listening because they’re not under the numbing agent. They want to invest.
JASON HARTMAN: Hey, hey, Steve, speaking of which. You know, I wanna remind everybody of my rather—maybe many people will think it’s a far-fetched prediction – but many years ago, I said this and now that we’re talking about government and so forth, what I said is the likelihood is that if you’ve got many years ahead of you in your life, if you live your whole natural life, hopefully you do, we will see states secede from the union within our lifetimes, right? And I always said if Texas were to secede from the union, it would become Hong Kong of the United States. In other words, it would be like this economic powerhouse is to Mainland China, which before Mainland China caught on with all this manufacturing and stuff that was British territory, but like Hong Kong is internationally known as this incredible financial center, right? And I think Texas, if it ever to secede, the producers of the Ayn Rand’s famous book, Atlas Shrugged, the producers would flock to a place like that or the government, you know, will get out of people’s lives and let them do what they want, and let them be productive, and that would become this Mecca of business and freedom while you see other states like New York and California struggle at the same time. So, that was my prediction many years ago, folks, and now that we’re talking about Texas, I’m gonna, I’m just gonna reaffirm that prediction, the Hong Kong of the United States.
STEVE: Prediction affirmed.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, as Hong Kong is to Mainland China, Texas, as its own nation, would become that way of the United States. Anyway, go ahead.
STEVE: [LAUGHING] Yeah. Well, it is the flagship for that centurian mind right now, people like Texas.
JASON HARTMAN: And the business-friendly state, people love that.
STEVE: It is, it is and actually right from the article here, 8 of the 15 cities with the fastest growth in the U.S. are in Texas—
JASON HARTMAN: Wow.
STEVE: According to data from the U.S Census Bureau. At the top of the list was the central Texas town of San Marcos which saw its population grow by 4.9%.
JASON HARTMAN: And Austin, of course, is great. I’m so glad we’re finally back in Austin doing business again because when we had to get out of Austin as the prices went up too high and the rents, of course, don’t keep pace with the prices, they never do, they always lag, just kind of stopped working and so we put Austin on pause for a few years and, and anyway, I’m glad to be back there.
STEVE: Yeah, yeah and, you know, much of the article here deals with Dallas which is great too. We haven’t been very active in Dallas, you know? We’re trying to get that market operation hooked in but, you know, one of the stats that the article gives is that a healthy amount of land supply is about 24 months and Dallas, right now, they only got 17 months of supply. So, like you said, it isn’t a market that never had a boom or a bust. It’s chugging long.
JASON HARTMAN: I wanna make a clarification there. That’s not 17-month supply of homes because that would actually be a lot of homes.
STEVE: Right, right.
JASON HARTMAN: That’d be a big supply. Not the biggest, but a fairly big supply, okay? That’s a supply of lots for builders to build on.
STEVE: That’s correct, yeah, it takes a longer view so—
JASON HARTMAN: Those aren’t finished homes, yeah.
STEVE: 17 months is a small supply for that.
JASON HARTMAN: Right. We’re just talking about builders here, not home buyers.
STEVE: And we do a lot of new construction homes in Texas right now. We love it for that and like we had said, it’s not a boom or a bust state right now, but it’s reaping the benefits of its good economic policy of the natural supply and demand that governs the building of homes. So, the funny thing is that they’ve got a short supply in Dallas and the market will fix it. The market will make up for it. There is land all around Dallas. They can build and people are gonna benefit from the growth from that, but it’s not like these volatile markets in California that are smashed up against the ocean and have all kinds of environmental regulations saying what you can and can’t develop. That’s why those markets are better for renters than they are for owners.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, and the RV ratio is a sign too, so another good reason.
STEVE: Yeah.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, yeah, good. We love Texas and we really always have. We have always done business in Texas. It’s amazing. Since the very beginning, Texas has always been just a fantastic place.
STEVE: We love it. The market is hot there right now and we’re having a lot of success, you know. If you like tier one properties that are newer or brand new construction, you’d get great returns, you’d get typically multi-year tenants, not always, but that’s something that you can talk about with the property manager, and they just perform really well. I’ve owned in Texas. I know you do. I know some of our other investment counselors do and we love that market.
JASON HARTMAN: Yup. No question about it. Okay, good! And then, speaking of hot [LAUGHING], you want to talk about looks here, huh?
STEVE: Yeah. Looks can sell in real estate and we’re not talking about property, talking about the agents.
JASON HARTMAN: I’m, I really dispute this a lot, but tell us about it. This is a Wall Street Journal article and it’s entitled, “In Real estate, Looks Can Sell.” Attractive agents both lease and sell for more money than average-looking agents, say researchers studying the effect of beauty on sales.
STEVE: That’s correct.
JASON HARTMAN: Tell us more, Steve. I mean, come on.
STEVE: So, if you’re a looker, the article claims that you’re just gonna do better at real estate. You’re gonna sell more and I’ll read a little blurb from the article to sum it up because this is really the meat of the article. To measure the effect, the hotness effect to be scientific, that’s from me—
JASON HARTMAN: [LAUGHING]
STEVE: Not from the article.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah.
STEVE: Okay. Professor Salter and co-authors, Franklin Mixon of Columbia State University and Ernest King of the University of Southern Mississippi, asked 402 people to rate agents, both male and female, on a scale of 1 to 10 from very unattractive [LAUGHING] to very attractive based on online headshots. The researchers then looked at the agents’ property transactions over a seven-year period. The findings, every 1 point increase in a listing agent’s attractiveness score added $10,989 on average to the home’s list price.
JASON HARTMAN: Okay. First of all, I gotta tell you something. Having been in traditional real estate for many years and, you know, having hired hundreds of agents and trained thousands of agents in the traditional side of real estate, I promise you, folks, that those photographs you see of those agents [LAUGHING] are so misrepresented.
STEVE: [LAUGHING]
JASON HARTMAN: First of all, it’s just like looking on match.com but with real estate agents, especially female real estate agents, I’m gonna pick on females a little bit more and, you know, some of this is our culture doing this, so it’s not all their fault, they’re just reacting to it. But they use a picture that’s 20 years old, I mean, it’s insane! [LAUGHING]
STEVE: If you’re looking to hire a realtor, have him send you a headshot with them holding today’s newspaper.
JASON HARTMAN: [LAUGHING] You have a good idea. There you go. If there is a newspaper still but, yeah, okay.
STEVE: [LAUGHING] Yeah, right.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah. Go ahead. Alright.
STEVE: So, they’re apparently getting more listings and a higher sales price on properties; however, the distinguished professors did find that if there isn’t, if the talent is equal between ugly realtor A and hot realtor B, hot realtor B has the advantage but if the talent is not, then the hotness factor is largely useless. So, what they found too, though, is that the hot realtor, so to speak, would work a little bit less. It took them less work to get the same results as the one who got hit with the ugly stick, so.
JASON HARTMAN: Well, I agree with that. Listen. Now, look, Steve, I don’t doubt that good-looking people do have some advantages in life, not always. Sometimes, there are some disadvantages and I’ll talk about that in a moment but my friend, Corey, who is a female friend that I used to know a long time ago, she used to say that her dad, you know, I mean, she was very attractive and, you know, I remember she was a title rep that called on our office and she said she will never forget what her dad said to her a long time ago. She said, you know, your looks might get you in the door, but you gotta back it up with something. I agree with that and then I guess our distinguished professors here found that to be true in the study. So, it sounds like they did say that and agree to that, but let me tell you something. I think that it’s very possible that a good-looking realtor could make more money every year but I don’t think the good-looking realtor is necessarily going to have the same listing, sell for more money than another realtor would. I think real estate—one of the great things about real estate once you own it is that it’s rather scarce and no two homes are exactly alike, and if the buyer wants that property, they’re gonna buy that property whether the realtor is attractive or not attractive. That doesn’t jive with me; however, let me make one other little, let’s peel off one more layer. I do think it’s possible that clients choose a listing agent to sell their home based on looks and people who are more possibly picky about keeping their house up and keeping their personal appearance up, and washing their car regularly, those type of more uptight people [LAUGHING], maybe like me.
STEVE: [LAUGHING]
JASON HARTMAN: My house is pretty clean, okay [LAUGHING]. Those types of people, I think, will largely choose a more attractive agent. I think that could be true of this study. And therefore, they have a better-looking house to sell and they just happened to choose a more attractive agent. You see what I mean? You get the connection there?
STEVE: I tend to agree that the-
JASON HARTMAN: They self-select. There is self-selection going on there.
STEVE: And we’re not necessarily talking about, you know, if we say somebody is unattractive, we’re not talking about the guy who, you know, is 200 pounds overweight and has bunch of pizza in his beard and stinks. We’re assuming that the person is well-groomed and is making an effort to take care of themselves physically. Everybody could do that and there’s just gonna be some people who are more attractive. They just have that edge.
JASON HARTMAN: But see, Steve, there’s no way that this, this is the problem with the academia and statistics in general. You’ve really got to peel the layers back and tease out what’s really going on in here. So, I think one theory, the one I just proposed, is probably very valid. I mean, having worked in traditional real state, I can say that is probably true, but the other part of it is that there is no way they can say it because the houses aren’t exactly the same. How can you do a study like this? You just can’t do it, I say.
STEVE: That variable, as the academics would call it, you know, they’ve got their variables in the study but, yeah, I don’t think they tried to take a seven-year track record here to try to get some kind of representative sample but—
JASON HARTMAN: But it doesn’t work.
STEVE: As you say, it’s—
JASON HARTMAN: Because, because—
STEVE: Too different.
JASON HARTMAN: In, seven years, the market is constantly changing over the course of the seven years. I mean the market changes seasonally. Do they adjust for seasons, interest rates, home building in the area, housing starts in that given area, and then you gotta have the unattractive realtor and the attractive realtor sell the exact same home at the exact time. It’s just this whole thing is trash, I don’t know. Other than that, so, the selection bias is one part of it that I think is possibly legit but I don’t know. Give me a reason to believe this. I just don’t believe it, but you know—
STEVE: [LAUGHING]
JASON HARTMAN: Maybe the advice we can give our listeners is that they should choose our least attractive local market specialist to buy their properties from [LAUGHING].
STEVE: [LAUGHING] And no, we are not going to talk about that on the air and give you guidance. So, you have to decide on your own.
JASON HARTMAN: Oh, you mean, we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna like pick on which MLS is attractive and which is not so?
STEVE: No, we’re not gonna throw one of them under the bus.
JASON HARTMAN: Okay [LAUGHING].
STEVE: You know, come to Meet the Masters and choose for yourself and, you know, if you see a really attractive one, you might just find yourself getting out your wallet and just giving them money according to the article.
JASON HARTMAN: [LAUGHING] Yeah, that’s entirely possible, very interesting.
STEVE: And leave the wallet in your hotel room.
JASON HARTMAN: Yes, they would—
STEVE: Just leave it, leave it up there.
JASON HARTMAN: There you go. Leave your checkbook in there. So, let’s talk about some properties here and then we can maybe tie that in with who’s selling them and who’s more attractive [LAUGHING].
STEVE: [LAUGHING] Fair enough. Well, speaking of hot, I’ve got a property here in Cape Coral, Florida. So, I mean, it’s very hot in Arizona right now.
JASON HARTMAN: Oh, my gosh! It is so hot here. I cannot even believe it.
STEVE: Yeah and rest the souls, the firefighters there –
JASON HARTMAN: Oh, yeah.
STEVE: Died. That was a—
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, I just heard. I mean, remember, note the day we’re recording this first, the day we’re publishing and, you know, so none of this is exactly sounding current to our listeners but that is such an awful tragedy—
STEVE: Yeah.
JASON HARTMAN: An entire fire department was wiped out battling a fire. I mean, has that ever happened before or something like that? I mean, that was just terrible.
STEVE: I read that it’s been a long, long time since there were that many –
JASON HARTMAN: Unbelievable.
STEVE: Casualties in one fire.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah.
STEVE: I mean, this was a specialized unit of firefighters.
JASON HARTMAN: I know. These were like hotshot guys. They were like really the pros. I mean, they were —
STEVE: Yeah, yeah, the wind got behind them at the wrong angle or something. I read about it and they just, they couldn’t get out. It’s—
JASON HARTMAN: That’s—
STEVE: Just very tragic.
JASON HARTMAN: Just tragic, yeah, a terrible thing. That was, I think, 19 firemen died, right?
STEVE: 19, yup.
JASON HARTMAN: Wow.
STEVE: Yup. So, I got off topic on a tangent, that didn’t mean anything—off topic on a depressing topic. So, we get on that properties here. Fort Myers, Florida, now, here is why I pick this one, Jason. It’s built in 1989 and we’ve got over 1% –
JASON HARTMAN: Well, this is the—
STEVE: Rent-to-value ratio.
JASON HARTMAN: This is the Cape Coral property you mean, right?
STEVE: That’s right, uh-huh. And a rent-to-value ratio of over 1% is pretty tough to do in Florida right now.
JASON HARTMAN: That’s for sure and it’s only slightly over 1%. So, this property is only $82,000. It will take you about 23,000 to buy it, of course, subject to qualifying and just going down the rest of the Pro Forma here and looking at these projections, $875 per month, so slightly more than 1% which is darn hard to do in an area like this and especially for a nice-looking [LAUGHING] —
STEVE: [LAUGHING]
JASON HARTMAN: Property. Now, I don’t know if the local market specialist looks that great, but the property looks good [LAUGHING].
STEVE: [LAUGHING] I’ll tell them you said that.
JASON HARTMAN: Oh, don’t say anything.
STEVE: [LAUGHING] Well, it does look really great. Typically, to get this kinda RV ratio, you’ve gotta go farther inland in Lehigh Acres area, but this is Cape Coral. It’s, you know, right there in the coastal area and we’re projecting a 9% cash-on-cash return which in an appreciating market is very good, and this actually already is leased and ready to roll. So, we like the property 34% total return on investment. So, if I was looking down there right now and ready to go, this would be one that is definitely above average.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, yeah. You know, what’s interesting, I got—I’m on the e-mail list for so many of these commercial real estate brokers, like everyday, I’m getting e-mails from them and what I got today was pitching a Sam’s Club for sale and it was 18 million dollars to buy a Sam’s Club—
STEVE: [LAUGHING]
JASON HARTMAN: And the cap rate was 6%. Folks, I mean, the residential properties are, the deals are so much better on residential and these big institutional buyers that want to spend 18 million dollars on a single deal, it’s too hard for them to play in this market because it’s too fragmented like we’ve talked about. The appreciation on that Sam’s Club is probably not going to be nearly as good as the appreciation on a good old single-family home. You know, you say, well, Sam’s Club, that’s an A+ tenant. Probably right but, you know, Sam’s Club stores close occasionally. Big-box stores close. Look at Circuit City, you know? Look at Barnes & Noble. I mean, of course, those are slightly different businesses, but I’m sure they left a lot of landlords holding the bag, okay, losing tons and tons of money on those deals. So—
STEVE: Yeah.
JASON HARTMAN: If you think you’re getting security to take a much lower rate of return which you are because the cap rate is only 6% but the overall return on investment, much, much lower. You know, I don’t doubt that at all and our business is so much better. I mean, it’s just such a better product. Everybody needs a place to live. Not everybody needs a Sam’s Club. There’s a lot of security in housing and that’s why I like it the very best.
STEVE: That’s right, that’s right and that’s actually a good cap, considering most commercial we see—
JASON HARTMAN: I know.
STEVE: But it doesn’t touch—
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah.
STEVE: What we offer on the single family.
JASON HARTMAN: No, it doesn’t, it doesn’t. So, cash on cash here projected at 9% overall return on investment projected at 34%. Our conservative assumptions are in there as usual and Steve, nice-looking property. So, buy the nice-looking property from the worst-looking agent [LAUGHING]. There you go.
STEVE: There you go.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah.
STEVE: Assuming they could even get that property [LAUGHING].
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, you got it. Okay, what’s the next one?
STEVE: We’ve got one down in the Austin, Texas area built in 2005 and it’s—I like this one for a couple of different reasons. It’s a 1700 sq. ft. approximately. The purchase price is $115,000. Our local market specialist will help you bid and get that from the bank. You don’t always get it on the first try in Austin, that’s the fact of life there, but assuming you got this one, you get it for about 115, sometimes even a little lower and your—
JASON HARTMAN: And sometimes a little more [LAUGHING], frankly.
STEVE: And that’s your choice—
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, right. Okay.
STEVE: You know, if you wanna bid back and forth, if it’s a multiple bid situation. Your closing, or you fix-up is gonna be about 7500. So, that’s what you pay after you close. Like I said, these are bank-owned and so that’s gonna have to go in there and do the repair as necessary to this property, but at the end of the day, you’re gonna have $1200 a month in rent coming in on this property built in 2004. What I’m liking is that it’s at about $67 per sq. ft. for a newer, slightly larger house in Austin, Texas. That’s good because that doesn’t include what you would need to pick up the land for it. So, it’s below cost to construction, not even bringing land into the equation, and land in Austin is a little more pricey.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, no question about it. Austin is a creative class city, just obviously a great place, no question about it. So, the cash flow here, looking at these projections, 115 maybe you could get it for 110. That’s what our local market specialist is saying and projected rent is $1200 per month. Cash flow $2,471 per year gives you an overall return on investment, if you get the financing outlined here at 32% annually and I’m not going to say it, but if it only goes half as well—
STEVE: [LAUGHING].
JASON HARTMAN: You’ll get 16.5%.
STEVE: I knew that you were gonna say it.
JASON HARTMAN: Oh, shoot! I guess I said it.
STEVE: I’ll say it next time.
JASON HARTMAN: Okay, alright. Yeah, you say it next time [LAUGHING].
STEVE: [LAUGHING]
JASON HARTMAN: Good stuff. Well, hey, Steve! Why don’t we wrap up unless you have something else and let’s get to Senator Byron Dorgan? How’s that sound?
STEVE: That’s sounds great. Looking forward to hear what he has to say.
JASON HARTMAN: Alright. We’ll be back with him in just a moment.
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JASON HARTMAN: It’s my pleasure to welcome Senator Byron Dorgan to the show. He is a former senator of North Dakota and author of the book, Gridlock, and today, we’d like to examine some of these issues relating to our power grid, our electrical systems, cyber-terrorism, etc. Senator Dorgan, welcome! How are you?
BYRON DORGAN: I’m good, thanks. And you?
JASON HARTMAN: Good, good. It’s a pleasure to have you on the show and are you coming to us today from North Dakota?
BYRON DORGAN: I’m in Washington, DC today, in fact.
JASON HARTMAN: You’re inside the beltway there, okay, good.
BYRON DORGAN: I am.
JASON HARTMAN: Tell us a little bit about the book if you would.
BYRON DORGAN: Well, the book is the second of a two-book novel that I—two-book novel contract that I signed and the first book was titled, Blowout, about a year and a half ago and this book is Gridlock, and incidentally, they both are thrillers. Neither of them are books that lack imagination. The book, Gridlock, is not about gridlock in Congress. Rather, it is about cyber-terrorism and it’s very briefly about the, in this case, the Russians creating a virus that is implanted by the Iranians who stole the virus into the American electric power grid system and it creates substantial chaos in the United States. So, it’s a novel that’s kind of interesting and I think also very timely.
JASON HARTMAN: And is it actually possible for them to do that or did you have to stretch the bounds of science at all to say like, I would normally think it would be in the electrical grid? I mean, it would be, maybe the virus would be in the internet, floating around the internet, but would it actually be on the power grid specifically?
BYRON DORGAN: Well, obviously, we didn’t write any instruction manual for terrorists—
JASON HARTMAN: Right, good.
BYRON DORGAN: For sure, but you know, it is the case that there has been a lot of speculation that a virus has been implanted into our electric power grid system by potential adversaries and we have an electrical grid system, by the way, that supplies power to our country that in some cases, is fairly archaic, in other cases vulnerable and there’s a lot of work being done and concern about trying to provide resiliency and protection for the American electric power grid system. You can imagine what happens if five minutes from now, the power goes out, right? I mean, it really affects all of our lives in ways that we don’t even think much about.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, no question about it. You know, I’ve done some shows where we’re talking about the grid and we’re talking about solar flares or EMPs and how incredibly vulnerable our power grid seems to be, and how long it might take to get it back online, and I guess the transformers are really made in China which [LAUGHING], you know, is not a good thing at all, but a lot of scary stuff there.
BYRON DORGAN: Well, you know, it’s interesting. We built an interstate highway system in our country, kind of a super highway that connects most parts of our country. We have not done something similar with respect to transmission lines. It moves power around the country. The transmission system, some parts of them are new, but a lot of it is not. It still, in many ways, comes from yesterday where they would have—you have a power plant in some place and then kind of a spider web of transmission lines that surround the power plant and move the power from the plant out to the residential homes and businesses in that little region. And you know, much of our system is still that and then we’ve connected many of these places together, but we have not built a super highway of transmission capability that is modern and protected and resistant to terrorist attacks. So, we need to get about the business of doing that and improving our infrastructure in that area.
JASON HARTMAN: So, is it fair to say then that there really is no such thing as a national electrical grid in this country?
BYRON DORGAN: There is a national electrical grid but it—you know, it’s like an old inner tube with a lot of patches on it. Some parts of it are modern, but there is a lot of this grid that is very, very old and is patched together in ways that you would not do if you were gonna build a new transmission system.
JASON HARTMAN: So, what do we need to do? Do we need to insulate transformers from EMP threat? Do we need to put some kind of software in the grid that will prevent virus like antivirus software the way you put it on your computer or your server? What is the answer?
BYRON DORGAN: Well, I’m not an expert in this area, but I do know that the kinds of things that are important to us, protecting our electric grid, protecting our water supply, our internet backbone, cellphones, the whole way of the things that we use day-to-day in this country in a very significant way, we need to have a defensive system or mechanism, a series of efforts to make sure that we bulk up the defense against cyber-terror. And you know the things that we understand have already happened, attacks, virus attacks in lots of areas. Do you remember the discussion that’s been underway about the August 2012 virus that went after a RAM code, the Saudi major oil company, erased all the data on three-quarters of their computers and the infected screens were left with the image of a burning American flag? Well, that was just an example of something that was pretty spectacular, erasing the data from three-quarters of this company’s computers. I remember just some weeks ago that there was a hacker that put out a tweet that NBC News reported two explosions happened at the White House and the president was injured and in two minutes, the stock market dropped 143 points, and then it was discovered, “Wait a second, this is bogus.” It was created by a hacker. The Syrian Electronic Army later said they were responsible. No one has really proved it but, you know, those are just a couple of very tiny examples, but there’s a relentless effort to continue to attack our systems in this country that, if successful, could have a very serious impact on our daily lives.
JASON HARTMAN: Your book talks about Iran and Russia, I guess, but who are our biggest enemies in this regard? I mean, was that intentional or did you just happen to pick them [LAUGHING], I guess is the question?
BYRON DORGAN: Well, that was part of a plot we created, but—
JASON HARTMAN: Right.
BYRON DORGAN: You know, I think that all the evidence suggested China is involved in a very significant way to learn as much as they can and get as much information from our systems, and attack our systems, and you know, at least, our intelligence community thinks that there’s a very large white government building in Shanghai that is engaged in a lot of this activity. So, you know, I think, in fact, I believe some news reports the president raised this with the head of the Chinese government just recently.
JASON HARTMAN: Byron, you know, since it’s so topical and I mean, I’d just be remiss if I didn’t ask you for your thoughts and some comment on the NSA scandal and Edward Snowden and what’s going right now. It’s just when you speak about the Russians and the Chinese, it seems like they’re kinda giving America the finger right now [LAUGHING], you know, with the extradition stuff, but you know, I guess, maybe the broader question I’d like to ask you is, is Snowden a hero or a villain or somewhere in the middle?
BYRON DORGAN: Well, I don’t know what he is. I think what he has done injures this country for sure and I think it also reminds all of us or should remind us, the American people do need to have accountability from their government. I understand, in order to protect the country, there are things that are happening that shaves some off of the liberty side. You know, there’s always this compromise between liberty and security but it is very important to me that to the extent that our agencies, particularly our security agencies, are doing things that are somewhere, you know, in the middle. It’s very important there would be aggressive and relentless oversight by the proper authorities and particularly the United States Congress. So, you know, what Mr. Snowden has done has provided front page stories, sensational stories about things. In my judgment, that injures our country, but it’s also the case that I want there to be very aggressive oversight of what is happening in secret to the American people. So, I don’t think, in any way, he’s a hero at all. I mean, obviously, he’s in trouble and should be in trouble for doing what he did the way he did it and I think there are some bigger questions even there. How is it that a guy with his background and skills was hired by this contractor for the Federal government and second, more importantly, how is it that he had access to all of these different kinds of information that we are told he would not normally have access to it? You know, I’ve been in many, over 30 years, many, many top secret briefings by intelligence, by the CIA and others and I’ve had none of those briefings now since I have left the United States Senate, but my guess is that there’s a lot to be accounted for by the agencies and I think there’s a lot to be accounted for by probably not as aggressive oversight as is necessary by the United States Congress.
JASON HARTMAN: You know, it was really interesting to me when we talked about the subject of viruses, how, you know, I later heard that that was really the way that we sabotaged initially the Iranian nuclear program by putting a virus into, you know, into their systems and somehow, it got to the centrifuge and—
BYRON DORGAN: Um-hum.
JASON HARTMAN: Made it spin faster and burn up [LAUGHING]. I mean, that’s an amazing, amazing story. I mean, how did we do that? And that really shows how someone could do a task, of course, but any thoughts on that?
BYRON DORGAN: Well, what is reported, you know, and I think these are just allegations [LAUGHING] but still, you can use your imagination. What is reported is that a computer worm called stocks net was targeting the Iranian nuclear enrichment plants, I guess it was, and raised very serious trouble for them and so, I mean, this issue of cyber-terror is, you know, if that can be done to slow down or stop the Iranians’ attempt to develop a nuclear weapon, it can be done by the Iranians. And by the way, you know, there was an announcement recently, the Iranians are committing a one billion-dollar fund to create their capabilities in cyber-terror. So, you know, there are a lot of people in bad countries that wish us ill, so we have to be very defensive about this and make certain that we have hard protection against it in our defense systems and in the public infrastructure. In this case, in our book, we’re writing about the American electric power grid which, if brought down by adversaries, would be a huge—it would probably destroy the economy if we were not able to address it in a short period of time.
JASON HARTMAN: I mean, is this really, you know, in old science-fiction movies and so forth, they portrayed future wars as being basically fought by computers and in a way, that’s what we’re talking about here. I mean, not fought by them, I guess, but fought as you’re trying to do destroy the opponent’s computer systems. Is this really our biggest threat? Is it more likely than a physical attack? In many ways, it’s probably easier to carry out and it doesn’t necessarily leave a trail where you can find the culprit, right?
BYRON DORGAN: That’s right. It does describe a new kind of conflict. I mean, in the most recent wars we’ve been involved in, in most cases, the adversaries didn’t wear uniforms, so that was a different conflict. You know, it’s used to be on the battlefield, you could identify the adversary, but in these recent wars, you didn’t know who was friend, who was foe. The new approach, the new attacks come digitally. You know, you don’t even see it. It’s just, it’s digital and I think there is the potential that you could see very substantial attacks against a country and the things that are essential for life in that country without ever seeing a soldier.
JASON HARTMAN: I think you’re right and that’s a very scary thing. Speaking of which, you know, it’s not just maybe the Russians or Iranians per se, but what about a group like Anonymous that threatens cyber attacks and so forth?
BYRON DORGAN: Oh, sure, very likely that that could be the case. Terrorist organizations in some cases are organized but in some cases, terrorists are not part of organization. They’re just terrorists and developing a deadly virus that they use to attack institutions or governments or, you know, defense systems and so on, that can be done by individual terrorists or terrorists that employ very sophisticated hackers around the world.
JASON HARTMAN: And they’re like these leaderless organizations where you can’t attack the head and end it. They’re just a bunch of cells—
BYRON DORGAN: Um-hum.
JASON HARTMAN: If you will, but you know, one of the new words, the general public learned after 9/11, is they’ve got all these cells and they’re acting independently pretty much. So, it’s a very difficult thing to do. It really makes me question our foreign policy, in general, and whether we should just back off and be more isolationist. You know, maybe we’re just making too many people angry with us, so I don’t know that you can do that in today’s world, being so interconnected and I don’t know where you stand on that, by the way. What side of the spectrum you are, maybe you can comment on that?
BYRON DORGAN: Well, I think, you know, the world has moved on and we’re part of the world, a very significant and major part of the world. I don’t think we can withdraw from what is happening internationally, for sure. In many ways, we have to provide substantial leadership. We haven’t talked about nuclear weapons. We’re talking about digital weapons but, you know, there is something close to 25,000 to 30,000 nuclear weapons on this planet as well and we have to provide leadership. The United States has to be a leader in trying to reduce the number of nuclear weapons that exist and try to make sure the spread of nuclear weapons stops and that we never see another nuclear weapon exploded in anger on the planet. So, we’ve got a lot of things do internationally. What we are talking about is cyber terror. Of course, that’s a subject that relates to the motives of the same bad people and weapons they would choose and I don’t want people who listen to this broadcast to go away thinking, “What was that?” There’s nothing we can do about this because we also have some very smart people working on ways to foil those who would attack us with cyber warfare.
JASON HARTMAN: Right. I guess I’m just questioning on that and I don’t want to harp on this, the foreign policy issue of, you know, when you hear Ron Paul say we’ve got, you know, what 170 bases, military bases in 170 countries or something like that, I mean, that just seems, it’s like the sun never set on the British Empire. It’s kind of ridiculous—
BYRON DORGAN: Right.
JASON HARTMAN: To my thinking—
BYRON DORGAN: It is.
JASON HARTMAN: That we have that much investment and that much involvement around the world.
BYRON DORGAN: No, I agree with that point.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, okay. So—
BYRON DORGAN: I mean, I think we extend ourselves so much and it’s so costly. You know, we should have a foreign policy that reaches out and, you know, convinces the rest of the world that this is the best country in the world. We’re free and you know, but I’m not, you know, we shouldn’t be going to countries with massive numbers of troops and leaving them there forever. We do that all the time and it costs a fortune and, you know, we need to worry a little more about what’s happening here at home. It’s true that, you know, we build big road projects, big bridge projects, big water projects in Afghanistan, but then we cut back on building infrastructure in the United States. I mean, we really ought to care a little about ourselves first to try to you know maintain this wonderful country of ours.
JASON HARTMAN: I couldn’t agree more, you know. It definitely starts at home. When we talk about energy and alternative energy, specifically, what has America done to sabotage its alternative energy industry and is it really viable? You look at Solyndra and these Obama debacles, you know, I’m just wondering, is it just not ready for prime time or is it ever going to be, or is it just crony capitalism, you know, a way to pay off your supporters?
BYRON DORGAN: You know, clearly Solyndra was a failure, but there were a lot of successes as well that came from the Economic Recovery Act in which the grants were made but you know, I’m still a big fan of renewable energy. I understand, you know, that the oil companies, for example, don’t want us to do renewable fuels and others don’t want us to do wind and solar but, you know, I think it just makes sense for us that we’re gonna have a lower carbon future and gathering energy from the wind, and putting it on a wire, and moving to a load center makes sense to me anyway, and so I know there, you know, there’s some that don’t like it, but that’s because they, themselves, are invested in energy that I think represents yesterday forever.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, sure, they are but oil companies, I mean, what’s to say that’s kind of like the railroad companies look at themselves as being in the railroad business rather than the transportation business—
BYRON DORGAN: Um-hum.
JASON HARTMAN: Which was a huge mistake. Modern oil companies are certainly smarter than that. Don’t they just view themselves as being in the energy business or the resource business? They can go into these fields and then they’ve got investments in them, too. It’s not like they—
BYRON DORGAN: Yeah.
JASON HARTMAN: Will be left out. They’ve certainly got capital and resources galore to pursue new businesses along these lines.
BYRON DORGAN: They do but, you know, they’re in the business of producing oil and gas and by the way, there’s great news in this country. We are producing more of each and that’s good, but I also think that we need to produce more renewable energy. You need diverse sources of energy and while I’m at it, let me just explain, you know, some of the oil companies, now, they started with the free market or the market price. We’re paying, you know, $90 to $100 for a barrel of oil and the fact is we’re producing more and using less, so what’s the deal there? Well, the deal is oil is not a free market. You’ve got this big cartel called OPEC and then in addition to OPEC, 90% of the oil reserves are owned by countries, not companies, and so they want to have oil priced at $100 and manipulate prices. So, there is no free market here at all, that’s just a sham.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, I don’t think there’s a free market in much of anything when it comes to the big corporatocracy [LAUGHING], you know?
BYRON DORGAN: Um-hum, um-hum.
JASON HARTMAN: Or Wall Street for that matter. It seems that free market is kind of an illusion. The free markets exist in small business main street America –
BYRON DORGAN: That’s right.
JASON HARTMAN: But they don’t seem to exist in big business regardless of the industry, do they?
BYRON DORGAN: And in main street, there is some real competition, right?
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah.
BYRON DORGAN: You got three restaurants and people have a choice, and so they wanna provide better service at better prices and better food, and that’s real competition. You don’t see a lot of that effort at the levels of corporate America these days.
JASON HARTMAN: No. I couldn’t agree more and that’s one of the things that really bugs me is that the large corporations get all sorts of special perks and laws made in their favor and they can afford lobbyists. In small business, they got nothing [LAUGHING] and they’ve just got the real, they just got the sweat on their brow and their own ambition, innovation, and ingenuity. So, it’s much harder road, but you’re one of the few democrats to have really called the financial crisis. Do you think taxpayers will continue to carry the burden or do you think they’re carrying the burden at all I guess, is the first question of the massive bailouts and, what does the future look like in terms of our financial situation?
BYRON DORGAN: Well, unfortunately, not much has changed. I wrote a book, called Reckless!: How Debt, Deregulation, and Dark Money Nearly Bankrupted America (And How We Can Fix It!).” You know, I wrote that about three years ago, four years ago now and you know, not very much has changed. We still have banks that are too big to fail. They’re still taking big risks with just flat-out gambling. They still traded what are called “naked credit default swaps,” where they have no insurable interests. It just bothers me a lot that we went through a near collapse of the economy and now, we have the biggest financial institutions doing much of the same of what they had been doing that led to that calamity in the first place.
JASON HARTMAN: And you were against the repeal of Glass-Steagall, right?
BYRON DORGAN: Oh, yes. I was one of the—I led the fight in the senate, but I didn’t have much clout because I didn’t get many votes with me, but I spent—I bet I spoke six or eight times in the Florida Senate saying, in fact, I predicted within a decade, we’re gonna see massive taxpayer bailouts if we pass that bill and that was removing the protections that existed after the last great depression. That’s what Glass–Steagall was about. It said, if you own a bank, you can’t you can’t engage in securities and insurance and all these other things, one-stop financial servicing, you can’t do that. You couldn’t do it before, you know, Glass–Steagall prevented it but then, that was repealed by Republicans and Democrats and I said it’s a massive mistake.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I’ve had some of the LaRouche people on the show and that is like their singular issue.
BYRON DORGAN: Um-hum.
JASON HARTMAN: [LAUGHING] You know, I’m kinda surprised I agree with them about—
BYRON DORGAN: Well, some of, yeah—
JASON HARTMAN: Some of—
BYRON DORGAN: Some of those folks are a little nutty—
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, I mean, I—
BYRON DORGAN: But [LAUGHING] even a stopped clock is right twice a day, they say.
JASON HARTMAN: I’ll give you, I’ll give you that but they certainly make some good points here and there. What else would you like to, just in the few minutes we have left to talk about, you know? Anything in particular going on in Congress that you wanna mention? I mean, there’s a lot going on of course, but anything of particular interest to you?
BYRON DORGAN: Well, there’s a lot going on but there’s, you know, they’re not dealing still with the central issues because Congress just seems to be, the title of the book is Gridlock and has nothing to do with the Congress, but that describes Congress. They just cannot seem to get things done and you know, I served in Congress 30 years, the last 18 years in the US Senate, and I left of my own volition because I wanted to do some other things, but if you are nourished by accomplishments and you’re in Congress—someone is serving in Congress and nourished by accomplishment, you’re starving because, you know, just not enough, virtually, nothing is being accomplished and I really wanted to see things change. They’re not changing at all at this point. My hope is that the American people can be better served by politicians who care about, more about the country than their political party.
JASON HARTMAN: And that is the hope for all of us. We [LAUGHING] agree with you very much. Well, your website is byrondorgan.com and there, you can learn some things and of course, you’re all over the internet if they just Google your name and you have a great Wikipedia entry. Thank you so much for joining us today, Senator Dorgan, and we really appreciate talking with you. The book is on Amazon and, of course, it has very nice reviews and your book, Reckless!, looks very interesting as well. When you talk about dark money in that book, are you talking about fractional-reserve banking and—
BYRON DORGAN: Um-hum.
JASON HARTMAN: The Federal Reserve?
BYRON DORGAN: I’m talking about all of it that—
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah.
BYRON DORGAN: You can’t see. There’s no transparency at all. Nobody knew how deep the risks were for these banks that we’re just, I said, you know, why don’t you just put up a casino or why don’t you just put up a craps table in your lobby? I mean, all that you’re doing is just flat out gaming.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah.
BYRON DORGAN: And I said, you know, you wanna gamble? Go to Las Vegas. Don’t do it with your depositor’s money.
JASON HARTMAN: Right, but the problem is they’re not really, unlike if we go to Las Vegas, we actually lose money when we lose but—
BYRON DORGAN: [LAUGHING].
JASON HARTMAN: They don’t really lose.
BYRON DORGAN: Yeah, that’s right out there.
JASON HARTMAN: You know, it’s a corporate socialism but hey, when does the book actually come out? It is on pre-order on Amazon,
BYRON DORGAN: The book is available on pre-order on Amazon now. The actual publish date is July 9th, just a week and a half away.
JASON HARTMAN: Fantastic! Well, again, thanks so much—
BYRON DORGAN: It’s called Gridlock.
JASON HARTMAN: For joining us, yeah.
BYRON DORGAN: I think it’s a good book.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah.
BYRON DORGAN: I think people will enjoy it.
JASON HARTMAN: Yeah, looks fascinating. I can’t wait to get—
BYRON DORGAN: Okay.
JASON HARTMAN: A copy of it and thanks for joining us.
BYRON DORGAN: Thanks a lot. Good to be with you.
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Transcribed by Joseph
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