In this episode of the Creating Wealth Show, Jason Hartman provides an overview of the real estate income property investing marketplace in the landlord-friendly city of Little Rock Arkansas.
Later, Jason interviews Matthew Hart author of ‘Gold: the Race for the World’s Most Seductive Metal’ in which he describes the fantastic world gold rush that followed the financial crisis of 2008.
When Lehman Brothers bank collapsed in 2008, it sent waves of panic through financial markets. Asset prices crumbled, and fear drove a tide of new investors into the safe haven of gold bullion. In three years the gold price shot from $800 an ounce to almost $1900, and thousands of explorers went out to scour the world for new deposits.
Key Takeaways
03.20 – Little Rock, Arkansas, is fast making a name for itself as a friendly market to real estate investors.
05.00 – In many parts of the country, particularly in the North-East, landlords simply don’t have any rights.
08.20 – In January’s ‘Meet the Masters’ event, you’ll have a chance to meet and hear from the experts and industry professionals in this field.
10.10 – The revelations shown in Carmen Segarra’s secret Wall Street recordings demonstrate the level that society has reached.
14.30 – Looking at patterns suggests that we are now coming to the end of the greatest gold rush in history, with most searches being totally price-driven.
16.10 – In Nevada, new technologies for gold extraction are really taking off.
21.35 – ETFs may well be the biggest factor in price movements and alterations with gold.
24.20 – Our fascination with gold has a history that dates back further than our ability to write.
28.00 – Like everything we use, eventually these gold deposits and reserves will run out.
30.30 – As it stands, the manufacture of diamonds in laboratories doesn’t look set to ruin the gem diamond trade.
33.30 – For more information and to buy Gold: The Race for the World’s Most Seductive Metal, go to www.matthewhart.net
35.40 – www.jasonhartman.com/store will give you access to all the Creating Wealth information you’ll ever need.
Tweetables
We’re gradually learning the degree of conspiracy between the banks and the Fed to “protect consumers”. Tweet this!
Gold is the measure of how we feel about how the world is going. Tweet this!
Regardless of its own state of affairs, the US still wants to be the bully of the world when it comes to currency. Tweet this!
Transcript
Introduction:
Welcome to Creating Wealth with Jason Hartman. During this program, Jason is going to tell you some really exciting things that you probably haven’t thought of before, and a new slant on investing. Fresh new approaches to America’s best investment that will enable you to create more wealth and happiness than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self-made multi-millionaire who not only talks the talk, but walks the walk. He’s been a successful investor for 20 years, and currently owns properties in 11 states and 17 cities. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to financial freedom. You really can do it, and now, here’s your host, Jason Hartman, with the complete solution for real estate investors.
Jason:
Hey, welcome to the show, this is your host, Jason Hartman. This is episode number 419. Our guest today will be Matthew Hart, as we talk about gold and the race for the world’s most seductive metal. I like to talk about this kind of stuff because it’s such a good barometer for so many things. When we deal with dollars, when we deal with Euros, when we deal with Yen, when we deal with any fiat currency, that is a fluctuating thing and it is not a very consistent measuring stick. But we actually love this. It’s great because we exploit this to our advantage as real estate investors, so that is a wonderful thing. I’m coming to you today from Little Rock, Arkansas. It is Sunday evening, and we just finished our weekend property tour; we had a great time. This was a smaller tour for us – it’s a small market and a small city – so it didn’t attract the normal 40-50 people that come to a property tour. We had, I think, 22 people at this one. It was just an awesome time – so Saturday we did the Creating Wealth seminar, we spend several hours going over all these different scenarios that might impact our financial future; whether they be inflation, deflation or stagnation, and how we can play the game correctly to win, regardless of the economic scenario that we face. That was very interesting and very enlightening, and we had a great time doing that.
Then today, Sunday, we went out and we looked at a whole bunch of properties, we shared meals together: yesterday, we had breakfast, lunch and a great dinner last night, and then a great lunch today at a Japanese restaurant. I thought it was kind of funny: here we are in Little Rock and we’re going out for Japanese food. Not exactly what Little Rock, Arkansas is known for! What it is known for is being the most landlord friendly, real-estate market in the country. It’s the most real-estate investor friendly market. Yesterday we had the property manager come in and speak to us for around 20-25 minutes. She talked all about how it is very landlord friendly and she talked a little bit about the audio that I played on a podcast several episodes ago about how Arkansas is the only state in the country where a tenant can face actual criminal charges for non-payment of rent while they’re holding over the property. I think that’s pretty harsh and I wouldn’t recommend that any landlord pursue that type of thing. However, it does work as a lever to get people to behave and fulfill their agreements. If someone isn’t paying the rent, they’ve got to get out. Society is based on people keeping their word and living up to their agreements. If we don’t have that, we have chaos, anarchy. So that was very interesting, and we got the real details on how that happens.
It was just amazing how low the vacancy rates are in the corollary, how high the occupancy rates are here, and how easy it is to get properties rented, and how easy it is to have co-operative tenants. They pay the rent here – what a concept! If they can’t pay, they move! That’s very refreshing, when a lot of our clients come from much more socialist markets where the landlord doesn’t get any respect. The landlord is looked at as the big evil investor who must be super mega-rich and must be a billionaire because they own a property. And God forbid they expect their tenants to actually pay them as they agreed to in the lease – what a concept, right? In those markets, it’s very tough to do business as a landlord – places like California, New York, the city Metro area of Chicago, among others. There are others in the North-East and so forth where landlords just don’t have any rights. One of the things we look for, besides a good diversified employment base, a good appreciation potential, a nice community – all of the factors that I present in the Creating Wealth seminar as what I call ‘The Lucky 13’ (13 is generally thought of as an unlucky number) where I’ve identified 13 characteristics. You can get this in my Creating Wealth Home Study course if you haven’t come out to see us live at one point, and really learn about those factors that make a market desirable for investment, for landlords, for real-estate investors.
Little Rock is just such a pleasant, clean, wonderful town. Last time I was here, I felt the same way as this time. Friday night, I went out to a wonderful dinner in this gorgeous new restaurant called Cash. It’s brand new and absolutely stunning. I went out with one of our clients that evening, and after this fantastic dinner we walked around, we went to the waterfront area, and it’s just beautiful here. I cannot get over how clean it is. The comparisons that come to mind are one place I used to live, which is Irvine, California, a super clean city. Another one is one I’ve been to twice, and I only visited a couple of months ago, and that’s Singapore. Singapore, if you spit on the side-walk, you’re going to get a $500 fine. I don’t know, maybe you go to jail or get a lashing! Remember that story years ago about – what was his name? – Michael Fay, during the Clinton administration, was some crazy kid who vandalized some cars there and they lashed him! I think that’s barbaric, obviously, but it shows you the reason Singapore is so clean and everything is so orderly; it’s because they take this stuff seriously. Of those three cities, you’ve got Irvine, Singapore as two of the cleanest cities in the world and I would put Little Rock right up there too. It was just a gorgeous, gorgeous smaller city. I really had just a wonderful time here this weekend, hanging out with our clients, learning, looking at properties, discussing issues.
Be sure, if you haven’t done this, to come to one of our events, meet our clients. We have lots of repeat clients that come to these events, and you can talk to them and hear the good, the bad and the ugly. We’re very transparent about all this stuff and it really gives you a chance to meet our clients, so here’s what I’ll say about that. We’re going to see if we can get one more Creating Wealth seminar and property tour in before the end of the year. I’m not sure where it’ll be yet, but we’ll announce that as soon as we get it figured out and get it planned. Then, of course, in January as usual, we’ll have our Meet the Masters event, our annual event where providers and experts on a variety of topics fly in from all over the country and that’s a two-day event. There are lots of speakers so I’m not speaking the whole time. I’m kind of the end scene, and I’m introducing people and doing two or maybe three sessions during the Meet the Masters event. Mostly, it’s other people – our experts and our providers. You’ll get to meet the masters at that event; we’ll announce that soon but that should be slated for January as usual. So please come and join us for one of those.
Now, before we get to our guest today, this just broke; this is a big, big story. If you listen to NPR and a couple of our clients do, I’m not a huge NPR fan but I do listen to it sometimes – I find it a little bit slow and wonky for my taste and not fast or hard-hitting enough, but they do have some good, in-depth stories from time to time. On their program This American Life, they talked about the secret recordings of Carmen Segarra, and I will see if we can get Carmen on the show in the future, but this is really mind-blowing. When you look at the relationship of these, basically – and I’m going to say it: Wall Street, the modern version of organized crime – it’s really hard to debate me on that because we all know it’s true. Even all of the guests I’ve had on prior episodes, who are Wall Street people, they know it’s true. It’s just disgusting what goes on at the highest levels of our government, our central banking system, at Wall Street and Carmen went, she felt a bunch of things were wrong and she went and secretly recorded a bunch of these meetings where she thought that things were inappropriate. Although I haven’t had time to fully digest this yet (I’m just diving into it this afternoon), but she really discovered a lot of things about this cozy relationship of how the Fed and the banks are basically conspiring together. There’s just no real oversight. I’ve got to tell you, this is true in a lot of industries. The Bar association bills itself, I guess, as an agency that is there to protect consumers, to give consumers a recourse against bad apple attorneys that do bad things, and what you often find in reality, is that it’s nothing more than a club to protect these lawyers. You find arbitration that I think is complete scam, and we’re going to talk about that more in a coming episode, and you’re going to learn about why you want to avoid these potential arbitration clauses in contracts and how you lose a lot of your rights, so look for more coming up on that. There are so many of these things in our society where you don’t even realize your rights and your recourse and your prosperity, and all kind of things, are just being taken away from you left and right. We’re here on the show as good investigative journalists to expose these shams so that you understand them and you can act accordingly to protect yourself. Let the buyer beware, and the buyer is really anyone and all of us in society who are engaging in transactions with companies, with businesses, with other people, and we don’t realize how our rights and our recourse are being diminished. This Carmen Segarra thing is really mind-blowing; it’s a big, big story. So there’ll be more on that in future episodes.
Let’s get to our guest today, without further ado. Let’s talk about the economy and the metals and why they’re important and why it’s important for us to understand this stuff as investors and really just dive into it. We’ve got a lot of great stuff coming up on future episodes so keep listening and here is our guest.
It’s my pleasure to welcome Matthew Hart to the show; he is the author of Gold: The Race for the World’s Most Seductive Metal, as well as some other books on diamonds and gold. Matthew, welcome, how are you?
Matthew:
Hello, I’m very well thanks, Jason. Thanks for having me.
Jason:
My pleasure. You’re located in New York today, right?
Matthew:
Yes I am.
Jason:
Fantastic, well, gold certainly is a seductive metal. It’s just so visually appealing, it’s so unique in its yellow color. You really chronicle the mining issues around the world and I want to talk to you about whether or not we’re in a gold rush. What’s the state of the world as far as gold goes, nowadays?
Matthew:
Well, you say ‘Are we in a gold rush?’ I believe that we’re ending what was the greatest gold rush in history, because there was gold exploration everywhere in the world, on every continent except Antarctica. When we think of a gold rush, we often think of the classic gold rush like in California. In California, they mined 850 tonnes of gold in 10 years. Today, we’re producing 850 tonnes of gold in 3 or 4 months, and at the time of the California gold rush, that was a stupefying amount of gold. Today, it’s just a drop in the bucket. Gold is a $20 trillion a year business. I call it a gold rush because it was, unlike California with the classic gold rush that people in the business call an ‘area play’ – in other words, someone finds gold in a given area, and then everybody else rushes there and digs for gold. Here’s it was price driven. The price converted all kinds of marginally prospective land in various parts of the world into suddenly top land, because where gold was worth $800 an ounce in 2008, at the time Lehman Brothers collapsed, then gold price shoots up and in less than 3 years it’s worth $1900 an ounce, so that makes all kinds of gold targets all over the world. All of a sudden, ground that was not worth exploring before is suddenly very worth exploring, and that’s what created this phenomenal gold rush where they were drilling everywhere. They were going back to old mines that had been closed and re-opened.
Jason:
And the technology is much better nowadays. When you made the comparison to the amount of gold being mined today within 3 or 4 months versus 10 years during the California gold rush, I couldn’t help but think about the oil and natural gas situation. Fracking has made so much more of those commodities accessible to us, and I think ultimately, will drive down the price. We might, for the first time, really become a major exporter of those products. What’s going on with technology in terms of gold mining?
Matthew:
Some of the biggest advances in technology for gold mining have to do with recovery. In the last years of the 20th Century, they developed, to a very large extent, the heap leaching. This works with very low grade ore and it’s possible because it doesn’t have to be treated in a plant. They just heap it up and leach out the gold with a cyanide solution, and they then capture the cyanide and put it in ponds. I know it sounds very horrifying, but it degrades quite quickly in the sunlight. I know in Nevada, where they do a huge amount of heap leaching – in fact, you could say that Nevada and the success of the Carlin Trend is due to heap leaching, which made a lot of the marginal ore very profitable. The environmental people in the state there – the land and water people – have told me that it’s just not a problem. They don’t have an issue with cyanide. They have other issues, mostly to do with de-watering, because if the mines go deeper, of course they have to pump them out and a lot of that water doesn’t get fed back into the aquifers it’s pumped from – it just evaporates. There’s a lot of water loss from the process, and I think that’s the environmental issue. Heap leaching has made marginal low-grade ore profitable.
Jason:
Is there anything else on the horizon? I don’t know if you’d ask someone in the oil industry before the advent of a new technology if they knew that, because of course we’re always somewhat surprised about the next technology, but is there anything that’s foreseeable, Matthew?
Matthew:
Well, I guess some exploration techniques are better, but I think maybe it’s looking at different locations for finding gold. For example, under the sea. There are now companies that have developed submersible prospecting systems, and in fact, the Chinese are building a bunch of these small submarines. Again, the Chinese have licensed a very big area in the Indian ocean that they’re going to explore. There’s a Canadian company called Nautilus, located in Toronto, and they had targeted somewhere near Papua New Guinea, and they’re under these volcanic vents under the sea. It was very rich in gold and minerals there. In fact, I think they had a mining plan on which they built a leaching agreement with the local government, which was the latest I read. Anyway, there’s gold under there. The fact that the Chinese are interested means that if it can be got out, it will be got out. They are now the world’s biggest gold consumers, as well as the world’s biggest gold producing country.
Jason:
Do you have any concern? I know you made the disclaimer before we started, Matthew, that you’re not a gold bug per se, but obviously you’re very interested in the topic, having written two books about it. Do you think any of these new exploration or mining technologies will put some downward pressure on the price of gold?
Matthew:
No I don’t. I don’t think that’s what would put pressure on the price of gold because we’re always consuming the supply. We’re always eating up their reserves, so mines are always becoming potentially less rich. But every day they mine, so you have to find new reserves all the time. I think the gold price is driven by human affairs. Yes, I know, there are technical analyses of the gold price and there are very qualified people who measure the supply of gold coming into the market with the market’s demands and all that, but I think if we brush that aside and get down to the core driver of gold value, you reach the fundamental point. Why should it be worth anything at all? It’s the feeling that it’s an ultimately indestructible asset because man has always regarded gold as valuable and I don’t see that changing. What started the bull run in the first place, the big bull run in the price, was a general failure of confidence in other asset values such as mortgages, equities and even currencies. By the time Lehman Brothers collapsed in 2008 and put the afterburners on on their gold prices, gold prices had already been rising for around 5 years. I could see that happening again if we get into a situation like just recently and what happened when it plunged. All of a sudden, investors were very nervous about the emerging economy of developing countries which seems to be rather uncertain right now. So what happened? The equities all settled down but gold went up, so I think gold is the measure of where we are in our feelings about how the world is going.
Jason:
It’s the fear investment and it’s also the lack of faith in currency investment, so no question about that; I agree with you. What do you think has been the effect of ETFs? There are many people out there saying, and I don’t know if you have any of these slightly conspiratorial thoughts about it, but that the ETF is kind of a ponzi scheme because the physical gold isn’t really there.
Matthew:
I’m not a conspiracy theorist about it, but I don’t think you have to be to look at the ETFs out of the corner of your eye. The ETFs bring a lot of volatility to the market simply because they allow so much gold to be traded so quickly. For one thing, they allow people to buy in quickly and to sell very quickly. If the gold price starts to go down, it’s easy to sell. By the way the reported ETF selling brings down the price, and then at the end of the day, the ETFs have to rebalance their share position by buying and selling so it matched up with the volume they have. They sell billions and dump it into the market in one go because that’s what they have to do. That tends to intensify the swing. It doesn’t cause it, but it intensifies price movements. I believe anyone in the gold market would agree that price movements are intensified by ETFs. It’s not whether they have the gold or not, but does the spider have the gold? They say it’s all in allocated accounts, meaning that their gold is held separate from any other gold, and you can go online, of course, and navigate through their website and see what purports to be a picture of their gold, and then you can also look and see the Bar numbers of it all. If you believe in conspiracy then you think that’s all rubbish. Have I actually looked at it? Has anyone actually gone in their and drilled the bars to make sure? No. So I understand that people have misgivings.
Jason:
Probably rightfully so. Whenever Wall Street gets involved, it creates so much smoke and mirrors in any equation that everything becomes murky and engineered, and it seems like the simple basic laws of economics become very masked by these ‘financial innovations’, as they call them. Talk to us a little bit if you would, Matthew, about what you think makes gold so fascinating and so fickle? You alluded to that before.
Matthew:
Well, it’s only reasonably recently that we had any idea of the antiquity of our fascination with gold. In 1972, a backhoe operator in the town of Varna on the Black Sea coast of Bulgaria unearthed a neolithic tomb by accident. Now, he was just a backhoe operator and was actually digging foundations for a little apartment building, when he accidentally unearthed this. They sent for the archaeologist, they opened it up, and inside was this treasure of beautiful little gold objects. Any of your listeners can go online and type in Varna Necropolis or Varna Gold and you’ll get all kinds of images of what they found. I have a catalog from the museum they built there – the Varna Museum, and it’s got these beautiful little objects. They dated them and found them to be 6000 years old; Neolithic men and women were treasuring and making these beautiful little ornaments. That’s at the dawn of our civilization. That’s before writing. It’s before Egypt even gets going. It’s the very dawn of our tradition of civilization. People cherished it. So you can go back to this question, why do we value it? Many writers have struggled with this, including great economists and thinkers. The best anyone can come up with is that it seems to be hard-wired into the human brain. Jastram, the Berkely economist who wrote The Golden Constant, a book that studied the relative power of gold over the centuries. He said he thought it was erased memory, so somewhere back there, is this impression that gold made on our very distant ancestors, in probably a brutish world where they just picked up this little lump of something that never corroded or rusted, was malleable – they could shape it into anything they wanted. That hasn’t gone away.
Jason:
I wonder if bit-coin will stand the test of time like that.
Matthew:
Somehow, I feel like it won’t. I don’t have anything against bit-coin; it is what it is. It just doesn’t have this huge cultural range that gold does.
Jason:
These companies that are talking about sending probes to asteroids to mine them – this seems like the most far-fetched, incredibly expensive idea ever, but apparently, maybe it’s not. A spacecraft that would go and mine metals from heavenly bodies and bring them back to earth; that just blows my mind. I’m sure you’ve read about this. There’s one company that’s raising money. I don’t know if they’re near an IPO stage or not, or if they’ve already done it. It’s amazing to me. I can’t believe that would actually pencil out.
Matthew:
I have no idea. I’ve never seen that sort of mass on it. I guess things tend to seem less absurd the further we get on in time. Certainly, if they do manage to figure out some way that they can retrieve this very heavy – although I guess it wouldn’t be very heavy in space, it would weigh nothing – but get it back to earth without it all blowing up or something, there’s a lot of gold out there. That we do know. One of my interviewers told me about something NASA posted up online – they had been observing this distant stellar event in which stars collided, or there was some kind of explosive event far far off in the galaxy. These super heavy metals were created, including gold, and they could measure this – how exactly I’m not sure, but they have ways of measuring matter in distant space. The scientists said that it would be the equivalent of 50 Earth-sized planets of solid gold. What would that do to the gold price?
Jason:
Wow, that is amazing. Investors and speculators alike really have to consider this, don’t they? This may not actually be that far off. There may just be a massive abundance of this. The thing that makes it valuable is its rarity, but maybe gold isn’t the thing for the next 20 years. It might be the thing for the next 5 years..
Matthew:
I think the space mining is probably a fair way out, but looking at other sources like undersea mining isn’t as far out. On the other hand, other big deposits will run out. Look at South Africa – water is drying gold deposits. 40% of the gold produced in the history of the world comes from that single deposit, and they’re certainly running down. These big gargantuan deposits will come to an end. I don’t know what the predictions are for the life of the Carlin Trend – how long can they go? Eventually they’ll have mined the last ounce of gold.
Jason:
I don’t know if the last ounce of gold or the pearl of oil will ever be mined because it’ll cost $2 trillion for the last piece!
Matthew:
Well there you are. It also becomes a total function of price, doesn’t it? Whether we run out of gold or not depends on the price of gold. If gold turns out to be $10,000 an ounce, there’s a lot of ground there that suddenly becomes a gold-mine.
Jason:
That’s for sure. One more issue along the supply lines that I’d like to ask you about is you wrote a book about diamonds. What is the title of that book?
Matthew:
It’s called Diamonds: The History of a Cold-Blooded Love Affair.
Jason:
You profiled a new diamond discovery in Antarctica. Isn’t that correct?
Matthew:
In the Arctic. In the Canadian Arctic.
Jason:
Okay, the Arctic, wrong polar cap. Everybody has long criticized De Beers for monopolizing the diamond market and so forth, but one thing that I found interesting as I was reading an article a few years ago about how they’re making diamonds in the laboratory now, and they’re real. They’re not fake; this is an actual diamond, it’s just made in a laboratory. Any thoughts about that?
Matthew:
Well, it’s a very big business, and in fact, De Beers is involved in it, and they certainly don’t control the diamond business anymore. They use to, but haven’t for quite a while. The biggest maker of industrial diamonds is General Electric. They have a big press in, I think, Woodington, Ohio. They’re generally used for industrial uses where they’re used for drill-bits and things like that. They’re actually making gemstone diamonds. There have always been stories about this, and generally about the Russians and how they’re making high quality gem diamonds and manufacturing them, but I was asked to comment on that by an interviewer recently in England, and I just said ‘Well, I guess if they could actually do it and you couldn’t tell the difference – so far you can tell the difference between them – then it would destroy the value of real gem diamonds’. Their value is based totally on rarity. They haven’t reached that so far, it would be very expensive to do and they would be destroying the market you were developing this technology for, unless they can figure out a way to do it cheaply. Other than that, it’s not complicated. You need a seed of carbon, and then it’s just pressure and heat, and that makes a diamond. You’ve compressed into a very short period what nature takes much longer to do.
Jason:
In your book – and we’re talking about the gold book now, Gold: The Race for the World’s Most Seductive Metal – you have a chapter on the Camp David Coups. What is that about?
Matthew:
That’s basically about the end of the gold standard. In 1971 when the Nixon government came to power and ended the gold standard – though it wasn’t really a gold standard at the time, it was the remnant.
Jason:
It was a pseudo gold standard.
Matthew:
It was the last version of the gold standard. At the end of World War Two, the United States had 75% of all the monetary gold in the world. That’s a rough figure but it’s generally accepted. So that would be able 20,000 tonnes. The other countries, after the war, couldn’t be on the gold standard because they didn’t have enough gold – the US had all the gold. Other countries tied their currencies to the US dollar, and the US dollar was convertible to gold.
Jason:
Isn’t that interesting, though? And then we backed out of the deal so we could inflate our way out of our spending problems.
Matthew:
You backed out of the deal because it wasn’t working. What happened was the economies of other countries improved after the war, so Americans started buying Japanese cars, German cars, foreign electronics and all things like that, but they weren’t buying the same kind of amount of American products, so what happened was American dollars flowed out of the country to buy these other goods. US dollars pile up in these foreign countries, but they don’t need the foreign dollars to buy US products so they just take them to the treasury and cash them in for gold. By the time Nixon came to power, this outflow of gold had turned into a gush. From 20,000 tonnes of gold, the US went down to 8,000 tonnes of gold, and Nixon put a stop to that, as we know, by simply cancelling the whole deal and saying ‘From now on, paper is paper’, that’s all you get.
Jason:
Paper is paper, but we will still be the bully of the world and retain the world reserve currency status, so we can control the value of that paper and the amount that we want to create out of thin air. That had to be the best deal the US ever got in history – we’ll see if we can hang onto it! It’s bothering people all over the world, and quite substantially.
Matthew:
Completely the best deal.
Jason:
Good, well give out your website if you would.
Matthew:
Yes, it’s www.matthewhart.net and that’s got buttons for buying my book and you can read a little about what I’ve done and my background. It’s got reviews and articles that I’ve written, so it’s fairly comprehensive.
Jason:
Fantastic, well Matthew Hart, thank you so much for joining us today.
Matthew:
Thanks for having me, I really enjoyed it.
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