Jason Hartman finishes up a two-part interview on asset protection with Garrett Sutton. The two delve into the various external threats to your portfolios. Then they discuss how to prepare yourself from lawsuits. Sutton goes into when you should move from an LLC to a corporation and which states are best for doing so. He discusses some differences in LLCs across a few states and offers a deal for Jason’s listeners.
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Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it on now. here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.
Jason Hartman 1:03
Welcome listeners to episode number 948 948. This is your host, Jason Hartman, thank you so much for joining me today. So we’re going to have Garrett Sutton back today for part two as we take a deep dive into asset protection strategies. So we will have him up in just a moment. But I have an announcement for you. We have gone the extra mile as we always do here. I had our photographer from meet the masters. do just a very minor edit to the photos with Ron Paul from Saturday morning for you VIP and elite and venture Alliance attendees and we have some great looking photos for you. Yes, when you went into the green room, and you took the pictures against the the step and repeat backdrop with Dr. Ron Paul er, well, he doesn’t want to be called Congressman, former Congressman, because of being a doctor is much more respectable. And I agree, by the way. So we have some great photos for you. And hopefully by the time you hear this, they will all be posted at Jason hartman.com slash photos. And this is just the first batch, because we have a lot more photos from the ron paul dinner that we had on Friday evening from the event in general. I tell you, you’re a good looking crowd people. And we got a lot of great photos for you. I’m really excited. I was looking through them today. And I tell you, you all look great and some of the the poses with Ron Paul. They’re, they’re just funny. So good job on those. And you can find those again at Jason Hartman comm slash photos. Now I want to tell About two other things. One, of course, just to mention it again, the Ice Hotel trip coming up in April, we got to get a few more people to greenlight this trip. It’s a venture Alliance trip but it is open to non venture Alliance members. You can apply to join and go to Jason Hartman Ice Hotel calm. Jason Hartman Icehotel calm. This is a once in a lifetime bucket list trip. That’s the famous famous Ice Hotel. And, you know, you can look it up. There’s all kinds of cool stuff out there about it. There’s that program. It’s a well it’s on Netflix. I don’t know where else it aired but the most amazing hotels in the world and hey, the Ice Hotel is in there. You can you can watch. watch that whole program about it. I did and I just can’t wait. I’m excited. And hey, I gotta tell you, I’m excited. And I don’t even like cold. Okay, now, I just have to tell you that we very strict TJ picked the beginning of April because it will at least normally be quite a bit warmer than going in the dead of winter. So, you know, as spring approaches, the Ice Hotel is going to melt shortly after we leave, but it won’t be as cold. So, you know, we’re gonna have dog sled rides, we’re gonna go snowmobiling, we’re gonna do some ice sculptures. We’re gonna sit in the spa, hopefully under the stars and the Northern Lights and it’s just gonna be an incredible bucket list experience. Plus, that hotel is just stunning. The way they do these ice sculptures and light them up and you know, we’ll hang out at the ice bar and drink out of those specially made ice glasses as we have swanky cocktails and all of that stuff. So that’ll be a lot of fun. Check it out Jason Hartman Ice Hotel calm. We also want to announce our next event. We have Have a Jason Hartman University coming up in San Jose? Yes, Silicon Valley, California, you know, we were going to get back and do an event back east. And we will eventually do that maybe, I don’t know, maybe in Washington DC or something like that, but it’s not going to be this one. So, you know, come out and see us if you live back east. Just come out to Nice, nice, pleasant, warm, beautiful Silicon Valley and see us on March 3, March 3. This is a one day event. Jason Hartman University now this is the event where we dig in deep we do this event about once a year, we dig in deep we learn how to do the math of real estate. That’s a big part of it. We do there. This is our most interactive event of all. Basically, I lead you through math exercises, so you can really own it and understand how returns are counted. calculated, we lead you through building a portfolio mortgage sequencing, all kinds of great stuff. And we will probably get a couple of our local market specialists and property management people there for you as well. So you can talk to them and get questions answered and and meet them in person. So look for that. That is on the website at Jason Hartman comm click on events, and that’ll be there for you. Let’s get to part two of Garrett Sutton and that deep dive into asset protection strategies. Okay, so here’s the thing, Garrett, you know, most people are thinking and look, never say never, As the old saying goes, anything can happen. And that’s the problem with legal advice, right? Because anything could happen. But I will tell you that I have never had any liability created by one of my tenants and I’ve had hundreds Have them over the years, I never really hear of people getting sued by their tenants. I think most of the problem comes from outside of the property. I mean, there are two areas where I think owning real estate can really create liability for you. And these are areas that are maybe impossible or at least difficult to insure around. I mean, if you have good insurance on your rental properties, you’re probably covered for most things, but two areas where you really got to be careful. Number one, fair housing laws discrimination, okay. Right. And if you have a property manager, you know, you have created an arm’s length barrier, but by the law of agency, and again, I’m not a lawyer, you’re the lawyer okay. But you know, so critique anything I say, of course, disagree with me. But by the law of agency, you know, the principal is responsible for the agents actions, then that’s kind of unfortunate because you can have an agent Like a property manager or a lawyer being your agent, or whomever creating liability for you. So that’s why you got to get a good one. Okay? But it does put some distance between it right? And if you self manage your properties, you got to just be careful. I mean, the fair housing laws are easy to follow. They’re not complicated, in my opinion, just read up on them and understand them and obey them. Okay, that’s the first thing. And you know, be careful how you treat tenants data, you know, if they fill out applications, and they got their social security numbers on them, and you know, you got to be careful of that stuff, obviously. But the other part is safety, right? Like if you are a negligent landlord, and you just ignore repeated requests, like to fix the lock on the door, you know, if someone could break into the house because the lock broke, and you just ignore that and you don’t fix it. You could create some liability for yourself, but outside of the outside of those things, I don’t think there are many other areas like old cliche slip and fall, you know, that’s what insurance is for. Okay? Now granted, the slip and fall could be higher than your insurance. You could have a cheap crappy insurance policy that doesn’t want to pay. There are things but I mean, am I missing something?
Garrett Sutton 9:15
No. And really, we should think back to government housing. Do you remember government housing? Sure, where they had all these units and the government ran them and they were poorly repairable? Yeah, they did not take care of them. The examples still exist in San Francisco, the city of San Francisco has public housing there rats everywhere, it’s unsafe. And so a lot of our remembrances of these unsafe unsanitary housing developments are from the government. I would argue that private landlords who have an interest in their property take care of their property. They have to pay insurance based on the safety of their property. There’s an incentive They’re to maintain your property not only so you won’t get sued, but so your insurance premiums aren’t through the roof. So you’re right. I don’t hear about too many slip and falls from tenants.
Jason Hartman 10:13
I think the thing the real threat for most people comes from outside of the properties. And look, folks, you know, I hope I’m not discouraging anybody income property is the most historically proven asset class in the world. It’s the best investment going, Okay, you just got to know what you’re doing a little bit. And hey, you got all sorts of free education here and cheap education if you come to any of our live events. But the thing is that you can have this liability with any asset, look at if you’re going to acquire assets. And if you’re going to make money and create wealth for yourself, hey, they can take your brokerage account, they can take your bank account, they can take your business, they can take anything you have, they can take your Bitcoin doesn’t matter, any asset, they can take it. They can take your gold, your Silver on these inter rogatory fees that are created in a judgment debtors exam. And, you know, I’ve got some judgments against people I’m trying to collect. So it’s interesting to see how this process works. You know, you send over a thing, hey, list anything in your house that’s worth more than $500 tell me where you have all your safe deposit boxes, right? You know, this is not a joke. If you lie, you could go to jail. Okay, this is perjury, right. So you know, you got to tell them honestly, you just have to protect it with proper entity structuring. So regardless of the asset, this is not a discussion really about real estate, except when it comes to the internal threat, which is low, you know, we talked about that and, you know, get insurance and then do some smart things, fair housing, safety, obviously, you know, those kind of things, protect tenants data, if you’re even receiving it, you know, you’re only going to receive that if you’re self managing. If you have a manager, you’re not going to receive it anyway. So those are But but it’s, look, if you’re a doctor, if you drive a car and you’re under the influence of drugs or alcohol, you know, your insurance may not cover you, if you’re under the influence. Okay? They, you know, I’ve heard of cases where I mean, definitely don’t drive under the influence, obviously. But hey, people do it. Right. So these are areas where you’re going to create liability for yourself. That’s the it’s the external threat. That is the biggest threat. I think.
Garrett Sutton 12:27
I agree. And here’s the thing. A lot of doctors, lawyers, professionals, real estate investors have brokerage accounts. They have stocks and bonds and cash in the bank. And if that’s held in their individual name, someone could reach it on the outside attack. Now, do you need that for the inside attack? Of course not. Your brokerage account is not going to sue you. It’s not going to get sued for just existing, but you certainly need to have brokerage accounts of a sufficient value. In a Wyoming, LLC for the better protection because you’re right, Jason, the main attack comes from the outside.
Jason Hartman 13:08
Yes, it certainly does. Okay, so let’s finish that up. And then let’s talk about LLC s versus corporations. What else is there like on slide number six, you’ve got an inside attack on a Utah LLC in this example. Then you’ve got the Wyoming LLC that also owns while they own the Utah LLC, and the Florida LLC, and then there’s a car wreck from the outside attack. What do you want to tell us about slide number six. And again, these slides are going to be at Jason hartman.com. In the podcast show notes.
Garrett Sutton 13:43
The key thing is that if the tenant sues, you know, we it is somewhat of a risk. It’s not a huge risk. But if the tenant does Sue and they were renting from the Utah LLC, that’s where the attack is directed. The tenant does not have claim against the Florida LLC they didn’t rent from them. The tenant does not have a claim against the Wyoming LLC. They had nothing to do with the Wyoming LLC. So the inside attack ends at the Utah LLC. That’s good. We don’t want to have too many properties in there. We certainly wouldn’t put properties from all over the country in one Utah LLC, we’d want to split them up. So the inside attack if we structure it right is going to be minimized. Now, the outside attack where the car wreck victim wants to get at Joe, the car wreck victim did not interact with the Utah LLC or the Florida LLC, but they’d like to get at it at those properties they’d like to foreclose on those interests. As we said earlier in the show, Jason if that Wyoming LLC instead was a California LLC, the court would say sure, car wreck victim. Go ahead. And foreclose on the interest inside that California LLC, you can force a sale of the Utah and Florida properties. We don’t want to use a weak state to be our holding entity. In this case, we’re using a strong state, Wyoming, which you know, the annual filing fees are only $50 a year, and they don’t list your name on the Secretary of State’s website as an owner. So it’s very affordable and comes with great privacy. But as you said, Jason, when you go into court when you are subject to those interrogatory, you’ve got to tell the truth about what you own. And you’re gonna say, Your Honor, I own a Wyoming LLC, that owns a Utah Florida LLC, and the court will have to follow the Wyoming LLC rules, if we do it right. And so that’s why we set up the Wyoming LLC to hold the other state LLC S
Jason Hartman 15:57
Corp. So if you’re unfortunate And you get a judgment against you that judgment, then and here’s the process that, you know, I’ve learned trying to collect from other people. What you have to do is you have to domesticate that judgment in the states where you want to pursue collection, I guess right. And that’s all set out by the interstate commerce clause in the Constitution, I believe, right that the states have to cooperate with each other. Maybe you can allow that on that what it’s called What is it called?
Garrett Sutton 16:32
Colm. It why comedy,
Jason Hartman 16:34
okay. And it’s not funny. Like, it’s not fun, eBay. It’s definitely not funny. So what’s gonna happen is they’re gonna go and if you live in, you know, Florida, and you’ve got the properties in several states, Tennessee and Texas and Georgia, for example. And then your LLC in Wyoming, they’re gonna go and they’re probably gonna domesticated where you live. They’re going to domesticate it. I mean, this is if they’re smart, this takes quite a bit of effort and cost by the way to do all this, then they’re going to domesticate it in Wyoming also, and who knows what court they’re suing you and in what state and county, it’s going to automatically be there without doing anything, right once you get the judgment. So do you want to talk about that at all? how that works? Because, you know, listeners, listen, this can help you not only if you’re on the negative side of this, where it’s against you, but on the positive side where you’re trying to collect from some other deadbeat, right. So, you know, you’re here, you can learning both ways there. This can work in both directions. Do you want to educate people a little bit about it? Yeah.
Garrett Sutton 17:41
When you domesticate the judgment, you need a attorney in that is licensed to go before the court in that state. So you need to the person coming after you has to hire an attorney in that state, which you know, it’s not hard, but what will you do if you’re coming after someone
Jason Hartman 17:59
else? Yeah,
Garrett Sutton 18:00
right more expense. And so we want, you know, and that’s a good roadblock that, yeah, you’re gonna have to hire someone in Wyoming. But if they’re really pursuing you, they would go to Wyoming. And this is where having all your records and your corporate minutes in order makes a lot of sense, because the courts going to want to see that you follow the corporate formalities or the LLC formalities. You’ve had the meetings, you’ve paid the annual fees. You’re operating as a legitimate LLC,
Jason Hartman 18:32
and they’re keeping your bank accounts separate.
Garrett Sutton 18:34
Yeah, absolutely. But if you can show the court that you’re entitled to Wyoming protection, because you follow the laws on corporate formalities, you’ve paid the fees every year, the court in Wyoming is only going to award the charging order. That’s the exclusive remedy listed in the Wyoming statutes for someone coming after Joe in this case.
Jason Hartman 18:59
Yeah. So you You say corporate formalities when we’re talking about LLC s, and we’re gonna go into that LLC versus Corporation differences here in a moment. But on a corporation, you do have to have them. You know, if it’s just a single member, you got to have a meeting with yourself every year. I believe you have to do that on an LLC, too. But oh, no, see, it’s a little easier, right? You don’t have to keep minutes. I mean, you probably are gonna say you should do it. But it’s not required, I guess. Right? Or maybe it depends on the state. So I’d like you to talk on that. And then talk to us about the differences of an LLC versus Corporation.
Garrett Sutton 19:34
Okay, well, the on the requirement for meeting minutes, some states do require it now. Others don’t. But even though the state law of your state may not require meetings every year, we found that when the IRS comes calling and they’re looking for your records, they really want to see that you have a minute book, you know, the corporate book with the minutes in it. Even though the state law doesn’t require it, the IRS finds it to be an indicator of seriousness of your business that you’re following these corporate formalities. So I always recommend that our clients do annual minutes for the LLC no matter what state they live in. And this is not hard to do. Jason, I mean, we give you a book that shows you a template for how to do it. I mean, it could take 10 minutes a year, we do provide the service for people, but you can certainly do it yourself. You know, it’s like the joke was, they call them corporate minutes. They’re not corporate hours. It’s not hard to put together a meeting even though it’s with yourself. So I always recommend that you have the meeting minutes. Now on the final slide, we do have the difference between an LLC and a corporation. And these are both entities that are chartered with the state. And so with a sole proprietorship with a general partnership, you don’t Have to do anything with the state, you don’t have to do a filing. But by taking that easy route, you also don’t have the protection. So in the left hand column, under LLC, we have the listing better asset protection, especially Wyoming and Nevada, because in most states, the charging order is the remedy that is provided to people suing on an outside attack.
Jason Hartman 21:27
Now interestingly, and I know Nevada is desirable, it’s just a little more expensive, and we both happen to live in Nevada. But you don’t mention Delaware and everybody talks about why Delaware is so great. I hear that all the time. Is that only for big companies? I know it’s great for big companies. There are a lot of them are baby. You’d be surprised how many giant corporations are based in Delaware, and nobody’s ever been there. They just have a peel box. But I think Delaware is the state with more peel boxes than any other state in the Union probably.
Garrett Sutton 21:54
I think you’re right. Yeah.
Jason Hartman 21:56
But just out of curiosity, what else besides Wyoming and Nevada Anything else?
Garrett Sutton 22:00
Well, Delaware is certainly a state that a lot of the big corporations go to. And, Jason, if some of your clients are looking to get funded, sometimes venture capitalists will insist that you set up in Delaware because they’re familiar with those laws. Delaware has good asset protection, it’s just that they have some additional requirements that you don’t have with Wyoming and Nevada. And when it comes to issuing shares in Delaware can get pretty expensive for corporations. So we just like Wyoming and Nevada,
Jason Hartman 22:34
that’s where we set up most people listening or issuing any shares. They’re just gonna be single member or maybe I know them them and their spouse or something. Yeah. Okay, go ahead, right.
Garrett Sutton 22:43
So with a corporation, it’s important to understand that on the outside attack, you get in that car wreck and someone wants to collect, they can reach the shares of a corporation, whereas an LLC, they can’t get inside and they have to wait for The charging order. By contrast with a corporation, if you’re the person you’re suing on 60% of the corporation, you can take control of those shares, and you know, sell the assets to satisfy your judgment. So the corporation does not have as good of asset protection is an LLC now to change that Nevada applied the charging order standard to corporate shares. So Nevada is the best place to set up a corporation because you have the charging order protection, even for corporate shares.
Jason Hartman 23:35
Okay, but the best place for LLC is really Wyoming. Yeah, and Nevada’s second best, maybe the only differences the fees are a little higher Nevada. They’re like 300 a year I think versus Wyoming’s 50 bucks. Right.
Garrett Sutton 23:48
Well, 50 versus 350. And then Wyoming does list your name on the internet. So with Wyoming for only $50 you have that privacy as well,
Jason Hartman 23:57
you mean Nevada puts her name on the internet, I think
Garrett Sutton 24:00
Nevada put your name on the internet Wyoming does not
Jason Hartman 24:03
okay, so why an LLC versus Corp though keep going down that list.
Garrett Sutton 24:08
Okay. With the LLC, you can choose how you want to be taxed you can be taxed as an S corp, a C Corp. If you have two or more members, you can be taxed as a partnership. If you have only one member, you can be taxed as what they call a disregarded entity meaning the LLC obligations and all flow onto your personal return. You don’t even have to file federal LLC tax return.
Jason Hartman 24:34
Okay, so an S corp means that all of the income passes through to your personal tax return. And so you can have an LLC taxed as an S Corp. It’s basically duplicates that but there’s another distinction between now c corpse are big corporations usually that have double taxation, they double dip on those, but with the LLC, there’s another time distinction besides an S election, meaning telling the IRS you want to be taxed as an S corp, even though you’re an LLC, it’s the same thing. But you can also have an election to be a disregarded entity.
Garrett Sutton 25:13
Right? What does that mean? That means that you are the sole owner of that LLC. There’s no other partner to account for. And so instead of having to do a K, one for each of the two partners, two or more partners, the tax obligations flow directly through that LLC without the need for a tax return. The obligations show up on your personal return, and you pay taxes at that level, without having to file an informational return. The LLC itself doesn’t pay the tax it’s, it’s paid by the individuals. Okay, so with most real estate investors listening, do an S selection on their LLC. Be a disregarded entity would that be what most people? Oh, you can’t be both Oh, no, you can either be an SSE disregarded or partnership. And a real estate investor typically is going to be taxed as a partnership or if there’s two or more people, or as a disregarded entity, if they’re the sole owner, you wouldn’t have S corp taxation for holding real estate. If you’re doing real estate management, real estate brokerage, then you would look at the S corp because that allows you to minimize payroll taxes but in a holding setting where you’re holding the real estate for investment, we don’t want to pay payroll taxes so we just want everything to flow through without worrying about salaries and payroll taxes just have it flow through as either a partnership taxation or disregarded entity taxation,
Jason Hartman 26:57
okay so disregarded entity basically. It sounds like what you’re doing there is you’re saying to the IRS, just act like this isn’t even there. Right?
Garrett Sutton 27:07
Right. You still have the asset protection. Right?
Jason Hartman 27:08
Right.
Garrett Sutton 27:10
So it’ll be in the name of the LLC got it. But the IRS, if it’s just you, they’re willing to carry everything flow on to your return. They’re gonna get paid no matter what. Yeah, yeah.
Jason Hartman 27:20
In other words, when you’re a disregarded entity, you basically are in the world of asset protection in the court system. You have that asset protection that we’ve been discussing, but in the world of the IRS in taxation, it’s like it’s not even there
Garrett Sutton 27:37
with one wrinkle. Jason okay. Some states are not providing asset protection for single member LLC. Yes. Ah, yes. Good point.
Jason Hartman 27:45
Okay.
Garrett Sutton 27:46
So, if you’re a single member, LLC, that you get to be a disregarded entity, that’s great. You don’t have to file that extra tax return. But if you’re in a state like California, Utah, Kansas, these states do not know Or Florida, these states do not protect the single member LLC. So that’s why we like using a Wyoming LLC, where the state laws specifically does protect a single member LLC. So there’s a little wrinkle there. Okay, so be want to mention which states
Jason Hartman 28:18
are like, which things we got to watch out for?
Garrett Sutton 28:22
Well, it’s a trend across the country. And the reason behind it is the charging order is there to protect the innocent partner. So you have two partners, and Joe gets sued in the car wreck. But john didn’t get in the car wreck. It’s not fair for the car wreck victim to barge in and force the sale of the assets. That’s not fair to john. So the charging order is a way to protect the innocent partner. Well, if there’s no other partner, there’s just Joe, some states and you could see why they have this rationale. Some states are saying Well, there’s no other person to protect. So We’re not going to give a charging order to a single member LLC when the guy got in, you know, his there’s a victim that had got hurt. We’re going to allow the single member LLC interest to be foreclosed upon. Yeah. And that is a trend across the country. So let me explain
Jason Hartman 29:17
why that’s there. And Garrett, we’ll wrap this up in a second here. But the reason that’s there is because it protects your partner, your other shareholders, it wouldn’t be fair, you know, if you got in trouble, and you had a big judgment against you and you have two other partner shareholders in your business with you and your LLC, and they could ruin their asset by foreclosing on the LLC assets and taking the property away from it. Because one person got in trouble, right. That’s the reason that’s the reason. Yeah, right. Yeah. Okay, got it. Okay, good. Good. Garrett. Anything else you want to say you Are you talking about 40 years LLC has a short history corporations have 500 year history, the corporate veil, they want to mention anything like that before you go well, I
Garrett Sutton 30:07
just wanted to mention that, you know, piercing the corporate veil for not following the corporate formalities has been with us for a long time, the courts are starting to pierce the LLC veil for the same reason. And so when we mentioned minutes, I like having those minutes in the minute book to show that you’re following these formalities. So just know that even though the LLC is a new entity, less than 40 years old, courts are catching up and they’re starting to pierce the veil on LLCs.
Jason Hartman 30:38
Yeah, you don’t want that to happen. For sure the veil is there to protect you. So make sure you do the things to make sure that veil is protected. And I’d say the number one thing you got to do is you got to not commingle money. You got to keep your accounting separate for your entities, right? Yeah. All right. Good stuff.
Garrett Sutton 30:56
Garrett. Thank you so much. Where can people find you In your great books, the website is corporate direct COMM And we have a lot of reports there and we’d be happy to get on the phone with you we have incorporating specialists, Lisa was at the meet the Masters had a great time talking to all your people Jason. So you can call 800-600-1760 and talk to someone get a free consult on what entity would be best for you. I’m just here in Reno so if you’re in Reno or you’re skiing or whatever, just I’m around
Jason Hartman 31:32
good stuff. And Garrett, you previously offered a discount to our listeners. I think that was like 100 bucks off an LLC. And do you want to share that? I don’t know if you’re still doing it. But if you’re doing it Hey, great. And in mentioned the prices too.
Garrett Sutton 31:46
So the regular price for setting up an entity be an LLC corporation or limited partnership is $695. And then the filing fees vary from state to state. But if you mentioned Jason heart And we give you $100 discount so it’s $595 per entity plus the state filing fees.
Jason Hartman 32:07
Good stuff. Garrett Sutton, thank you for joining us and thank you for that discount offer everybody when you when you talk to Gareth’s office, make sure to mention my name, you’ll get 100 bucks off, and really appreciate the education today.
Garrett Sutton 32:19
Great to be here, Jason.
Jason Hartman 32:22
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